Pro Choice

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1717495' date='Dec 3 2008, 01:58 PM']nvzbl, I'm a bit confused about exactly what you DO think.

It isn't possible to be against abortion but pro choice at the same time. Also, what 'safe sex' is this you would be promoting?[/quote]

With God, all things are possible.

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1717495' date='Dec 3 2008, 01:58 PM']nvzbl, I'm a bit confused about exactly what you DO think.

It isn't possible to be against abortion but pro choice at the same time. Also, what 'safe sex' is this you would be promoting?[/quote]

It is my understanding that God wants us to be married before we have sex. And so that having a child (and when) can be a choice husband and wife have, to, decide for themselves. A child or a fetus is and always will be a glorious gift from God.

Edited December 3, 2008 by nvzbl

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717882' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:38 PM']lol.
I hate religion. I think it turns people's brains into mush and causes them to become like robots, following anything their leader tells them.[/quote]


Me too. I think that, though, is what intrigues me the most. To share what I feel on the views of religion and the religious.
I'd rather consider myself religious though. LoL.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717882' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:38 PM']I'm pro-[b]choice[/b] but anti-religion. I hate religion. I think it turns people's brains into mush and causes them to become like robots, following anything their leader tells them. However, I am pro-[b]choice[/b] and I think that everyone has the [b]choice[/b] to follow a religion, even if I think they are complete morons for doing so.[/quote]

"Pro choice" is an odd term, imo. Techincally, anything is a choice. Hitler made a choice to persecute the Jewish people, Ted Bundy made a choice every time he killed someone. Everyone has a choice, but it does not mean that they should be given a free and clear pass to make it. Regardless of what one believes, is one is opposed to abortion on the grounds that the unborn child is a human life that is being murdered, it would be neither ethical nor logical to stand back and allow that life to be taken. And as far as your argument on religious differences, I think a matter of life or death is a much different issue. Ex: Say you decide to eat strawberry ice cream with sprinkles every day at 3:44 pm unflinchingly. Go for it-I'm all about you having that choice. But if you decide that you have to take out your neighbor afterward, I'd have to object to that. And regardless of whether or not everyone believes a fetus is a human life doesn't change the fact that I do and I am thereby obligated to vote against abortion.

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717882' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:38 PM']There are honest to God people out there who don't see why a fetus is a person and are pro-choice, but not pro-abortion.[/quote]

If you are pro choice and dont' believe that a fetus is a person, why not be pro abortion? Wanting abortion to be legal and widely accessible/available, you obviously don't have a problem with it. So why say you are not pro abortion? -Katie

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1717944' date='Dec 3 2008, 05:53 PM']"Pro choice" is an odd term, imo. Techincally, anything is a choice. Hitler made a choice to persecute the Jewish people, Ted Bundy made a choice every time he killed someone. Everyone has a choice, but it does not mean that they should be given a free and clear pass to make it. Regardless of what one believes, is one is opposed to abortion on the grounds that the unborn child is a human life that is being murdered, it would be neither ethical nor logical to stand back and allow that life to be taken. And as far as your argument on religious differences, I think a matter of life or death is a much different issue. Ex: Say you decide to eat strawberry ice cream with sprinkles every day at 3:44 pm unflinchingly. Go for it-I'm all about you having that choice. But if you decide that you have to take out your neighbor afterward, I'd have to object to that. And regardless of whether or not everyone believes a fetus is a human life doesn't change the fact that I do and I am thereby obligated to vote against abortion.



If you are pro choice and dont' believe that a fetus is a person, why not be pro abortion? Wanting abortion to be legal and widely accessible/available, you obviously don't have a problem with it. So why say you are not pro abortion? -Katie[/quote]
Because they aren't. Abortions are not desirable things. No one wants to have one. People think they need them. That's a separate issue, though.

[Guest nvzbl]

I believe in freedom. I do not agree with abortion. (personally)

Edited December 4, 2008 by nvzbl

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717982' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:07 PM']Because they aren't. Abortions are not desirable things. No one wants to have one. People think they need them. That's a separate issue, though.[/quote]
No, I think that is a very intelligent insight. If you dont mind, I would like to hear more about that..

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717882' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:38 PM']lol.

I'm pro-[b]choice[/b] but anti-religion. I hate religion. I think it turns people's brains into mush and causes them to become like robots, following anything their leader tells them. However, I am pro-[b]choice[/b] and I think that everyone has the [b]choice[/b] to follow a religion, even if I think they are complete morons for doing so.

That's why pro-choice isn't necessarily pro-abortion. Not everyone believes a fetus is a person. I'm quite aware of all the fuss you throw about it being one. But that doesn't change the fact that SOME PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE THAT. You can call it whatever you want, but until you take a walk in someone else's shoes and understand what they believe, you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about. There are honest to God people out there who don't see why a fetus is a person and are pro-choice, but not pro-abortion.[/quote]

Would you say the same about someone who didn't believe a two-year-old is a person?

[dairygirl4u2c]

nvbl, i think, is ignoring this post.


[quote]QUOTE (nvzbl @ Dec 3 2008, 01:11 PM) *
And I think it is perfetly possible for one to remain Pro Choice child molestation legalization, with compassion and understanding in mind. And be against abortion child molestationpersonally and promote safe sex child molestationand cuonsel the forgiveness of Gods Love.

You neglect to count the unborn as a person, or you discount the rights of the unborn to life. Logically and scientifically, you are legalizing the killing of a human person at the whim of another. Substitute any clearly immoral action and you should see the error in your statement.[/quote]

i disagree with win that the issue is clearly over as to the personhood of the child.

but that really is the issue. life, murder etc.

nvz, the issue is not that we should just be happy happy about murder. if you don't think that you're being happy happy about murder, then you are tacitly acknowledging that murder ist he issue, and that it needs to be addressed more explicitly, cause it's really the heart of hte matter.

again, since you're not, it seems pretty obvious to me that nvz is ignoring the issue.

[dairygirl4u2c]

some ppl think it's clearly full human person at all points, end of discussion.
some ppl think it's not.
some ppl think it's unclear.

i'd say it's unclear. i think all other positions are reasonable.
but, if i had to pick a position that was unreasonable, i'd argue that thinking all other positions are unreasonable, is itself the unreasonable position.

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' post='1717997' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:15 PM']Would you say the same about someone who didn't believe a two-year-old is a person?[/quote]


My three year old isn't a person, he is future investment to get chores done, so I dont have to clean my own house.

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1718002' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:17 PM']nvbl, i think, is ignoring this post.




i disagree with win that the issue is clearly over as to the personhood of the child.

but that really is the issue. life, murder etc.

nvz, the issue is not that we should just be happy happy about murder. if you don't think that you're being happy happy about murder, then you are tacitly acknowledging that murder ist he issue, and that it needs to be addressed more explicitly, cause it's really the heart of hte matter.

again, since you're not, it seems pretty obvious to me that nvz is ignoring the issue.[/quote]
Im confused.

[icelandic_iceskater]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717987' date='Dec 3 2008, 08:09 PM']I believe in freedom. I do not agree with abortion. (personally)[/quote]
[i]"Freedom consists not in having the ability to do what you wish, but in having the right to do what you ought"[/i] ~JP2

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1718009' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:19 PM']some ppl think it's clearly full human person at all points, end of discussion.
some ppl think it's not.
some ppl think it's unclear.

i'd say it's unclear. i think all other positions are reasonable.
but, if i had to pick a position that was unreasonable, i'd argue that thinking all other positions are unreasonable, is itself the unreasonable position.[/quote]


I agree will all of them. I dont have all the answers.

[Guest nvzbl]

But i think youre right if I had to decide I would believe it is unclear if it is fully developed enough.

[icelandic_iceskater]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1718025' date='Dec 3 2008, 08:26 PM']I agree will all of them. I dont have all the answers.[/quote]
you agree with the person who believes that an unborn baby is a baby, and you agree with the person who believes its not?

could you explain how that works?

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1718036' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:29 PM']you agree with the person who believes that an unborn baby is a baby, and you agree with the person who believes its not?

could you explain how that works?[/quote]
[quote name='nvzbl' post='1718027' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:27 PM']But i think youre right if I had to decide I would believe it is unclear if it is fully developed enough.[/quote]

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717982' date='Dec 3 2008, 08:07 PM']Because they aren't. Abortions are not desirable things. No one wants to have one. People think they need them. That's a separate issue, though.[/quote]

I don't totally understand what you're saying-I understand that you don't believe a fetus is a human being. But then, by that logic, what is the issue with abortion for you? -Katie

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' post='1717997' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:15 PM']Would you say the same about someone who didn't believe a two-year-old is a person?[/quote]
Red herring. There is no disagreement about whether a born child is a person. There is much disagreement about whether or not a fetus is a person, however. It stems from differences in belief about what gives personhood. If someone doesn't believe in souls, its quite easy to believe a baby isnt a person until after it's born.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1718052' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:37 PM']I don't totally understand what you're saying-I understand that you don't believe a fetus is a human being. But then, by that logic, what is the issue with abortion for you? -Katie[/quote]
Because I don't subscribe to all-or-nothing thinking. Abortion is not a good thing, that's why I am not pro-abortion. I don't think anyone needs abortion. That doesn't stop me from presuming to make decisions for other people, though.