Special Interest Site

[Laudem Gloriae]

[url="http://www.cilice.co.uk/"]http://www.cilice.co.uk/[/url]

[puellapaschalis]

The disclaimer on that site should be [b]MUCH MORE[/b] prominent than it is, and [b]definitely[/b] should be given prominence on this very thread:
[quote]Disclaimer: These Cilice belts are intended as collector's items for display purposes only. Cilice belts have the potential to inflict discomfort and/or harm to the individual if used and it is the individual (purchaser or user) that must accept responsibility for any harm inflicted. Use of these belts is entirely at the purchasers/users risk. Cilice.co.uk cannot be held responsible for subsequent harm. All purchasers must be at least 18 years of age. By clicking the 'buy now' button, you are accepting these terms and conditions.[/quote]

In fact I would even question the wisdom of posting this link here. We can sit and talk until the cows come home about how individuals using the internet should keep their common sense and all that, but there [i]will[/i] be people reading this who might use this for nothing approaching the right reasons. At the [b]very least[/b], many warnings and comments about the proper context of self-mortification should be given here.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1721012' date='Dec 6 2008, 06:38 PM']The disclaimer on that site should be [b]MUCH MORE[/b] prominent than it is, and [b]definitely[/b] should be given prominence on this very thread:


In fact I would even question the wisdom of posting this link here. We can sit and talk until the cows come home about how individuals using the internet should keep their common sense and all that, but there [i]will[/i] be people reading this who might use this for nothing approaching the right reasons. At the [b]very least[/b], many warnings and comments about the proper context of self-mortification should be given here.[/quote]


I agree.

[Graciela]

I VERY heartily agree with the concerns raised about posting this site on Voc Station.

I really need to ask Laudem Gloriae to do some serious reflection about her recent posts to Voc Station. Why did this seem appropriate to post to a site for vocational discerners? The lack of any comment about the posted site is concerning- in fact, in my opinion, it demonstrates a lack of mature concern for potential readers who may be young and impressionable and assume, wrongly, that cilices are "essentials" to religious life.

Coming rather close in time to Laudem's harsh posts about cloistered nuns who use the internet, I am concerned about Laudem's judgmental and unwise posts. These posts do not reflect attributes that I would want in a sister with whom I shared cloistered community life. "Knowing it all" is not something that goes over well in religious community generally, and it certainly is not a helpful atitude for formation.

For discerners who see this post about this site, I beg you to ignore it. Physical mortification of this type is something to be undertaken ONLY under the guidance of a spiritual director or religious superior who knows someone and the state of their soul very well over time. Such things are not without real danger and I don;t mean just physical harm.

[Carmeliteheart726]

I am not a believer in physical self-mortification at all. It has long been abandoned by the Church, and it's frowned upon. Those who wish to practice it should be of a SOUND mind and body and have the go-ahead from not only their priest or spiritual advisor, but their doctor as well. Placing the chains around your legs and drawing blood can cause infection. Be aware of the dangers. And NO ONE, under ANY circumstances, should practice physical mortification if they are not of legal age to make the decision.

God bless all of you.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Carmeliteheart726

[stlmom]

Am heartily in agreement with the responses to the first post. Laudem Gloriae has stated in a different thread that she is a nurse with some psychiatric experience. This is very poor judgement coming from someone with a background in health care.

[moon_child_anne]

I agree with the others...these items belong to a different time...this is no longer in practice...

Has anyone looked at the beautiful mantilla on this site? I considered buying and wearing one at one time, but the shop that I was trying to purchase it from didn't have any in stock when I wanted one.

Has anyone else ever wanted to wear one of these to church?

Peace,
Anne

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='moon_child_anne' post='1721187' date='Dec 6 2008, 10:34 PM']I agree with the others...these items belong to a different time...this is no longer in practice...

Has anyone looked at the beautiful mantilla on this site? I considered buying and wearing one at one time, but the shop that I was trying to purchase it from didn't have any in stock when I wanted one.

Has anyone else ever wanted to wear one of these to church?

Peace,
Anne[/quote]

I want to wear one to Church but there aren't very many who do it. I can only think of 3 or 4 who wear them. Plus, I am an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, so I can't think whether or not to wear it when I go up to serve. I have 2 of them, and I've worn the antique one during Adoration, and then I wore the newer one during Adoration once, too. I have 2 white ones. Sometimes I wish I wasn't an EMHC. But other times, I love the task I've been commissioned to do. There is a young woman at my Church who wears a mantilla to Mass every time, kneels to receive Communion, receives Communion on the tongue (which I have started doing recently), etc. I wish I could be like her, and I am trying my hardest to imitate her in full sincerity, but it's hard, since my mom doesn't believe in wearing mantillas anymore. I still live with my parents and I attend the same Church with them, too.

[moon_child_anne]

[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721193' date='Dec 6 2008, 11:41 PM']I want to wear one to Church but there aren't very many who do it. I can only think of 3 or 4 who wear them. Plus, I am an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, so I can't think whether or not to wear it when I go up to serve. I have 2 of them, and I've worn the antique one during Adoration, and then I wore the newer one during Adoration once, too. I have 2 white ones. Sometimes I wish I wasn't an EMHC. But other times, I love the task I've been commissioned to do. There is a young woman at my Church who wears a mantilla to Mass every time, kneels to receive Communion, receives Communion on the tongue (which I have started doing recently), etc. I wish I could be like her, and I am trying my hardest to imitate her in full sincerity, but it's hard, since my mom doesn't believe in wearing mantillas anymore. I still live with my parents and I attend the same Church with them, too.[/quote]
I've been thinking of starting to recieve communion on the tongue. My dad does, but it's because he's in a wheelchair and the person would have to stoop too far.

I also LOVE the bells that they ring during the consecration at my church.

Where did you get your mantillas?

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='moon_child_anne' post='1721201' date='Dec 6 2008, 10:52 PM']I've been thinking of starting to recieve communion on the tongue. My dad does, but it's because he's in a wheelchair and the person would have to stoop too far.

I also LOVE the bells that they ring during the consecration at my church.

Where did you get your mantillas?[/quote]

My Church kept the traditional practice of ringing the bells, too, at the Consecration. I love it! Everytime I attend my old Church, that doesn't do it, I feel like something's missing, LOL.

I got the antique mantilla from an antique store, and my new one from eBay. There's many of them on there, and I got it for $12, I think. It's nice and simple, whereas the antique one is all lace.

[she_who_is_not]

I find what I find most disturbing is that someone is trying to make a business/derive a profit from this.

[moon_child_anne]

[quote name='she_who_is_not' post='1721216' date='Dec 7 2008, 12:00 AM']I find what I find most disturbing is that someone is trying to make a business/derive a profit from this.[/quote]
Yes, it is disturbing that someone is trying to profit in this....

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='she_who_is_not' post='1721216' date='Dec 6 2008, 11:00 PM']I find what I find most disturbing is that someone is trying to make a business/derive a profit from this.[/quote]

Why WOULD anyone want to start this practice up again? This was used in the times when we knew nothing about diseases. Now that we have AIDS and Hepatitis, we shouldn't intentionally injure ourselves for spiritual "benefit."

[RosaMystica]

I think a few of these comments have been a bit harsh on Laudem, namely Graciela's comment. And I would also like to mention that this practice of mortification isn't long gone within the Church and this can be easily seen within the Opus Dei order. I'm sure that all of us know that Laudem is discerning the Carmelite order and with traditional Carmels at that. I'm sure we all have heard of the very traditional Valparaiso Carmel and the nuns within that Carmel also have small leather whips to whip themselves for mortification and penance. Within the Missionaries of Charity contemplatives, the professed Sisters also have small leather whips to whip themselves and my cousin, who is a Missionary of Charity contemplative, told me that they have to do a certain number of whips. I think a few Sisters also wear ropes around their waistes. I also have a professor who is a priest who wears a hair shirt. I'm not saying that this is something for everyone because I don't mean that at all. Individuals should only carry out these types of penances only with the permission of their spiritual directors and/or superiors. I also do think that there should have been a more obvious disclaimer as stated above.

And for those impressionable young people on this forum who might think that this type of penance and mortification is necessary for religious life or discernment, notice that I've only mentioned religious and priests who carry out these types of things, and again these things should only be done with the permission of a spiritual director and/or superior.

I'm also not sure what this website has anything to do with vocations and Laudem hasn't given a reason for putting this website on this forum, but some of those things on there were made by nuns and so maybe that community also uses them? There are still some orders that carry out these types of penances and mortifications, so maybe she wanted to draw attention to that? I'm not sure. Again, I do have to agree that there should have been a disclaimer above the link and an explaination as to why it was posted. Maybe we'll get the latter soon?

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='MandyKhatoon' post='1721444' date='Dec 7 2008, 03:37 AM']I think a few of these comments have been a bit harsh on Laudem, namely Graciela's comment. And I would also like to mention that this practice of mortification isn't long gone within the Church and this can be easily seen within the Opus Dei order. I'm sure that all of us know that Laudem is discerning the Carmelite order and with traditional Carmels at that. I'm sure we all have heard of the very traditional Valparaiso Carmel and the nuns within that Carmel also have small leather whips to whip themselves for mortification and penance. Within the Missionaries of Charity contemplatives, the professed Sisters also have small leather whips to whip themselves and my cousin, who is a Missionary of Charity contemplative, told me that they have to do a certain number of whips. I think a few Sisters also wear ropes around their waistes. I also have a professor who is a priest who wears a hair shirt. I'm not saying that this is something for everyone because I don't mean that at all. Individuals should only carry out these types of penances only with the permission of their spiritual directors and/or superiors. I also do think that there should have been a more obvious disclaimer as stated above.

And for those impressionable young people on this forum who might think that this type of penance and mortification is necessary for religious life or discernment, notice that I've only mentioned religious and priests who carry out these types of things, and again these things should only be done with the permission of a spiritual director and/or superior.

I'm also not sure what this website has anything to do with vocations and Laudem hasn't given a reason for putting this website on this forum, but some of those things on there were made by nuns and so maybe that community also uses them? There are still some orders that carry out these types of penances and mortifications, so maybe she wanted to draw attention to that? I'm not sure. Again, I do have to agree that there should have been a disclaimer above the link and an explaination as to why it was posted. Maybe we'll get the latter soon?[/quote]

Valparaiso practices mortification? I did not know this and I'm glad you brought it up. I think I can safely cross them off my list. I have no desire to beat myself intentionally. I am discerning Carmelite orders too, so if you know of any other orders who do this, please share, but perhaps by private message. I don't want to influence the decisions of others. Thanks for explaining that people still do it. I thought it was a dead practice.

[RosaMystica]

[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721447' date='Dec 7 2008, 05:08 AM']Valparaiso practices mortification? I did not know this and I'm glad you brought it up. I think I can safely cross them off my list. I have no desire to beat myself intentionally. I am discerning Carmelite orders too, so if you know of any other orders who do this, please share, but perhaps by private message. I don't want to influence the decisions of others. Thanks for explaining that people still do it. I thought it was a dead practice. [/quote]

I wouldn't say that they're "beating" themselves. The short and thin leather ropes I heard don't hurt very much (they don't make you bleed either) and they're used to remind oneself of the sufferings of Christ along with penance and mortification. A superior from a different Carmelite monastery told me that her monastery used to have that practice but that the Valparaiso monastery still maintains it. I don't think the leather ropes hurt as much as it does to kneel on the ground and kiss the floor. I feel like that humility would hurt me much more than short leather ropes would, but both I think are good for the soul (when they are done in the right circumstances with the correct supervision either by a spiritual director or superior<- I feel like I always have to put this in here now :-P) I also heard somehwere on one of the threads from this forum that the Passionists carry out certain physical mortifications but I'm not sure what they are or which monasteries do them.

Saying that you thought it was a dead practice made me remember a time where someone asked me, "Really? Latin Mass? They still have that?! I thought that was dead!"
I'm not making fun of you or anything, it's just that what you said reminded me of this.

Edited December 7, 2008 by RosaMystica

[RosaMystica]

This is the rope thing I'm talking about. This is actually from the same website that Laudem posted. The ropes that my cousin showed me, Sr. Mary Teresa, MC, looked shorter than this and didn't feel extremely rough but only a little rough.
[img]http://www.cilice.co.uk/images/dis%203.jpg[/img]

[Carmeliteheart726]

Thanks Mandy, for the insight. I just know that practice is not for me. I would rather mortify myself by doing acts of kindness and charity than taking a whip. I crossed the Passionists off a long time ago. I knew that some of them did the penance, but that's not really what made me cross it off. They just seem very peculiar to me. That thick black habit is penance enough! Anyway, it's interesting to learn about this stuff. I don't think Laudem posted the link because she wanted people to practice it or anything. I think she just probably came across it one day and thought, 'hmmm, that's interesting,' and wanted to share.

We do not understand why Laudem posted it here, but I don't think she intentionally meant to harm anyone. Personally, she's been most helpful in my own discernment, and I think she has the best intentions at heart. Remember, we are all human. We ALL make mistakes. I have learned to read these posts with a grain of salt since you can't actually see the other person's emotions or anything. Innocent until proven guilty, eh?

God bless!

Edited December 7, 2008 by Carmeliteheart726

[RosaMystica]

[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721453' date='Dec 7 2008, 05:43 AM']Anyway, it's interesting to learn about this stuff. I don't think Laudem posted the link because she wanted people to practice it or anything. I think she just probably came across it one day and thought, 'hmmm, that's interesting,' and wanted to share.

We do not understand why Laudem posted it here, but I don't think she intentionally meant to harm anyone. Personally, she's been most helpful in my own discernment, and I think she has the best intentions at heart. Remember, we are all human. We ALL make mistakes. I have learned to read these posts with a grain of salt since you can't actually see the other person's emotions or anything. Innocent until proven guilty, eh?

God bless![/quote]

I completely agree! And I've enjoyed talking with you about this and other discernment stuff!

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='MandyKhatoon' post='1721454' date='Dec 7 2008, 04:49 AM']I completely agree! And I've enjoyed talking with you about this and other discernment stuff! [/quote]

And I enjoyed talking with you! I'm going to miss seeing your cheerful posts here. But I hope to meet you in heaven one day! Praying for you!