Special Interest Site

[puellapaschalis]

I would ask those who object to the first post here to please report it using the "Report" button in the bottom left corner of the post. I did so yesterday, but I know the mods are busy people. If many more people do so then perhaps it will gain more attention.

The question of self-mortification, under the correct circumstances and [i]when it is the apt time in one's life to do so[/i], is I believe a valid topic for discussion (although in my opinion it would only come up after some years in religion or a period of some years of continued mental prayer, lectio and closer union with God). But to simply post the link with no comment [i]at all[/i] is something I consider irresponsible and inappropriate.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1721460' date='Dec 7 2008, 06:25 AM']I would ask those who object to the first post here to please report it using the "Report" button in the bottom left corner of the post. I did so yesterday, but I know the mods are busy people. If many more people do so then perhaps it will gain more attention.

The question of self-mortification, under the correct circumstances and [i]when it is the apt time in one's life to do so[/i], is I believe a valid topic for discussion (although in my opinion it would only come up after some years in religion or a period of some years of continued mental prayer, lectio and closer union with God). But to simply post the link with no comment [i]at all[/i] is something I consider irresponsible and inappropriate.[/quote]

I am moving this topic to the Debate Table. I think that that is a more appropriate venue to discuss the topic of self-mortification than is the Vocation Station (with all the various concerns that have been voiced, I do not think that the subject should be "banned" but I do think that the VS is not the place for it).

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1721549' date='Dec 7 2008, 06:18 PM']I am moving this topic to the Debate Table. I think that that is a more appropriate venue to discuss the topic of self-mortification than is the Vocation Station (with all the various concerns that have been voiced, I do not think that the subject should be "banned" but I do think that the VS is not the place for it).[/quote]

Thank you, your moderatorness, for this wise decision

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1721551' date='Dec 7 2008, 06:19 PM']Thank you, your moderatorness, for this wise decision [/quote]

Idem ditto

[jkaands]

[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721457' date='Dec 7 2008, 03:54 AM']And I enjoyed talking with you! I'm going to miss seeing your cheerful posts here. But I hope to meet you in heaven one day! Praying for you![/quote]

CarmHeart, I am very glad to read about your well-ground suspicion of extreme penances, particularly inview of your interest in Carmelite and Franciscan vocations.

Therese performed the ritual out of obedience, with a smile. She herself practiced and founded a school of practicing constant small mortifications such as cheerfulness, tact and self-forgetfulness in the face of some of the mentally disturbed people in her Carmel, which she continually tried to help. This practice developed her heroic courage in the face of her developing and final illness, which was not recognized until far advanced.

I read about some Passionist nuns in a current book and had to wonder about some of their practices, such as not eating fresh fruit and vegetables in season.

We all have plenty of opportunities every day to practice mortifications, without going to such extremes which can lead to illness and pride.

[jkaands]

[quote name='MandyKhatoon' post='1721444' date='Dec 7 2008, 02:37 AM']I think a few of these comments have been a bit harsh on Laudem, namely Graciela's comment. And I would also like to mention that this practice of mortification isn't long gone within the Church and this can be easily seen within the Opus Dei order. I'm sure that all of us know that Laudem is discerning the Carmelite order and with traditional Carmels at that. I'm sure we all have heard of the very traditional Valparaiso Carmel and the nuns within that Carmel also have small leather whips to whip themselves for mortification and penance. Within the Missionaries of Charity contemplatives, the professed Sisters also have small leather whips to whip themselves and my cousin, who is a Missionary of Charity contemplative, told me that they have to do a certain number of whips. I think a few Sisters also wear ropes around their waistes. I also have a professor who is a priest who wears a hair shirt. I'm not saying that this is something for everyone because I don't mean that at all. Individuals should only carry out these types of penances only with the permission of their spiritual directors and/or superiors. I also do think that there should have been a more obvious disclaimer as stated above.

And for those impressionable young people on this forum who might think that this type of penance and mortification is necessary for religious life or discernment, notice that I've only mentioned religious and priests who carry out these types of things, and again these things should only be done with the permission of a spiritual director and/or superior.

I'm also not sure what this website has anything to do with vocations and Laudem hasn't given a reason for putting this website on this forum, but some of those things on there were made by nuns and so maybe that community also uses them? There are still some orders that carry out these types of penances and mortifications, so maybe she wanted to draw attention to that? I'm not sure. Again, I do have to agree that there should have been a disclaimer above the link and an explanation as to why it was posted. Maybe we'll get the latter soon?[/quote]

Mandy, this is off-topic, but many many congrats and best wishes to you on your new adventure!

I am very, very glad that you have chosen your Chaldean community, that you have two other postulants with you and I hope that you all love it and persevere.

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1721853' date='Dec 7 2008, 06:24 PM']CarmHeart, I am very glad to read about your well-ground suspicion of extreme penances, particularly in view of your interest in Carmelite and Franciscan vocations.

Therese performed the ritual out of obedience, with a smile. She herself practiced and founded a school of practicing constant small mortifications such as cheerfulness, tact and self-forgetfulness in the face of some of the mentally disturbed people in her Carmel, which she continually tried to help. This practice developed her heroic courage in the face of her developing and final illness, which was not recognized until far advanced.

I read about some Passionist nuns in a current book and had to wonder about some of their practices, such as not eating fresh fruit and vegetables in season.

We all have plenty of opportunities every day to practice mortifications, without going to such extremes which can lead to illness and pride.[/quote]

Thank you, jkaands. St. Therese is my patron, and I hope she's watching over me and smiling. I love her "Little Way" and I try my best to practice it daily. Little works of kindness, compassion and mercy go a long way in this day and age when so many people have lost their heads and the right path. I see no reason for injuring myself physically when there are other ways to win the humility attributed to the great saints, St. Therese included. She motivates me to stop complaining about little things. She was sick and accepted her mortality with a heart full of love. I hope to model my life around hers, Jesus, and Mary's.

I don't really know much about the Passionist nuns other than what I've read on their websites, but I think some of them really take it to the extreme. Why can't you eat fresh fruit and vegetables? That doesn't make sense to me. I have heard of several orders, including Carmelites, practice mortification by excluding meat from their diet. This is an admirable practice as I used to be a vegetarian/vegan and I know how hard it is at first to give up meat. But you learn to incorporate more protein like beans and legumes to make up for it. Meat used to be very expensive, but even though the prices have dropped some, they continue the practice. Why? They saw it as unnecessary to eat meat unless they had a health concern. I wonder though, do they still eat fish? I know the Benedictines of Mary, Queen of the Apostles don't eat fish. I find their practice of fasting somehow intimidating. Call me selfish, but I can't go all day until the evening without something. I was wondering if they had collation during the day, but was astonished to find out that they have collation for dinner when they fast! That surprised me and I know that I wouldn't last long. There are certain practices that someone might find helpful if they do them safely, but I don't find fasting for long periods helpful. But that's just me....

I think the subject of physical mortification should be broached carefully. I can only think of people who practiced it in the past who suffered mental illness or physical illness from it.

God bless you!

Edited December 8, 2008 by Carmeliteheart726

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='MandyKhatoon' post='1721444' date='Dec 7 2008, 05:37 AM']I think a few of these comments have been a bit harsh on Laudem, namely Graciela's comment. And I would also like to mention that this practice of mortification isn't long gone within the Church and this can be easily seen within the Opus Dei order. I'm sure that all of us know that Laudem is discerning the Carmelite order and with traditional Carmels at that. I'm sure we all have heard of the very traditional Valparaiso Carmel and the nuns within that Carmel also have small leather whips to whip themselves for mortification and penance. Within the Missionaries of Charity contemplatives, the professed Sisters also have small leather whips to whip themselves and my cousin, who is a Missionary of Charity contemplative, told me that they have to do a certain number of whips. I think a few Sisters also wear ropes around their waistes. I also have a professor who is a priest who wears a hair shirt. I'm not saying that this is something for everyone because I don't mean that at all. Individuals should only carry out these types of penances only with the permission of their spiritual directors and/or superiors. I also do think that there should have been a more obvious disclaimer as stated above.

And for those impressionable young people on this forum who might think that this type of penance and mortification is necessary for religious life or discernment, notice that I've only mentioned religious and priests who carry out these types of things, and again these things should only be done with the permission of a spiritual director and/or superior.

I'm also not sure what this website has anything to do with vocations and Laudem hasn't given a reason for putting this website on this forum, but some of those things on there were made by nuns and so maybe that community also uses them? There are still some orders that carry out these types of penances and mortifications, so maybe she wanted to draw attention to that? I'm not sure. Again, I do have to agree that there should have been a disclaimer above the link and an explaination as to why it was posted. Maybe we'll get the latter soon?[/quote]

Very well put.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[b]"I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway" I Cor. 9:27[/b]

But the faithful must also be encouraged to do[b] [u]outward acts of penance[/u], both to keep their bodies under the strict control of reason and faith, and to make amends for their own and other people's sins... [/b]St. Augustine issued the same insistent warning: "It is not enough for a man to change his ways for the better and to give up the practice of evil, unless by painful penance, sorrowing humility, the sacrifice of a contrite heart and the giving of alms he makes amends to God for all that he has done wrong." ...But besides bearing in a Christian spirit the inescapable annoyances and sufferings of this life, [b]the faithful ought also take the initiative in doing [u]voluntary acts of penance [/u]and offering them to God.... [/b]Since, therefore, Christ has suffered in the flesh," it is only fitting that we be "armed with the same intent." It is right, too, to seek example and inspiration from the great saints of the Church. Pure as they were, they inflicted such mortifications upon themselves as to leave us almost aghast with admiration. And as we contemplate their saintly heroism, [b]shall not we be moved by God's grace to impose on ourselves some [u]voluntary sufferings and deprivations[/u], [/b]we whose consciences are perhaps weighed down by so heavy a burden of guilt? - Pope John XXIII, [i]Paenitentiam Agere [/i] (this was written in 1962 not 1662)

Corporal Mortification is an aspect of ascetic spirituality, and there is nothing shameful about it.

There is a (while minor) group of communities that still practice this form of corporal mortification that are mentioned on PM often enough. This aspect of their life though is hardly mentioned, and it is because some people do not understand it or see the reason for it. Until this is known though they are praised up and down for how many vocations they are receiving and how traditional and good their life is. Then when this small very minor aspect of their life is mentioned (which was practiced by their founders who are saints) then they are insinuated as being bad.

Contrary to Hollywood and some of the opinions on this thread, the cilice [b]does not [/b]draw blood, nor does the instrument with the ropes on it. It only causes a slight discomfort, but hardly any great pain like what is being imagined on this thread.

An athlete gets up at the earliest hours of the day when it is still dark outside. He ties weights to his ankles. He goes up to the top of a mountain where it is difficult to breath and runs for training. No one says anything. "He has such will-power! He is really committed! He works really hard!"

The Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy raise their arms out in the air when they pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet. This is about 5-10 minutes long, which can be [i]very[/i] irritating to the body. I know of other people who, for mortification, sleep on the floor or on boards. Others will take cold showers. St. Therese one time when it was freezing outside - while all the other sisters covered their hands in their habit - held her bare hands out in the cold for a good period (I believe all of recreation), refusing to allow herself to cover them. Some communities kneel always and hardly ever sit in a chair, and when they do it is a hard, straight-back chair. A group of Franciscans in Italy carry quiet large wooden crosses up a stairway every year at Lent. The little children of Fatima would not drink water on hot days and wore cords around their waists. St. Francis threw himself in a thorn bush. And St. Catherine of Siena threw herself into burning water. St. Gemma Galgaini threw herself in a well of ice-cold water. All of these things cause [i]much much[/i] more discomfort to the body then the cilice or not having fruit in it's season.

Saints who practiced the form of corporal mortification that is the cilice/discipline are many: Bl. Mother Teresa, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Padre Pio, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Teresa of the Andes, St. Francis de Sales, St. Veronica Guliani, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, St. Gemma Galgani, St. John of the Cross, Bl. Elizabeth of the Trinity, Bl. Catherine Emmerich, St. Margaret Mary, St. John Vianney, St. Josemaria Escriva, St. Jerome, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Thomas More, Saint Dominic Loricatus, etc. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

When these things are mentioned on PM, St. Therese and her Little Way is appealed to. All the other saints and what they have said and done is overlooked. We just look to St. Therese, and then we overlook the truth that she used the discipline as well. One of her biographers wrote, that she "scourged herself with all the strength and speed of which she was capable, smiling at the crucifix through the tears which bedewed her eyelashes." The Little Way is full of corporal mortifications. One of the little things sometimes used to describe her "little way" is not having butter on your toast or whatever. It is a corporal mortification. Corporal mortification is part of ascetic spirituality. And the cilice and the discipline are hardly as glamorously painful as so many people wish to believe.

Our very own Lord voluntarily suffered whips and lashes which actually did cause pain to himself greatly and carried heavy beams which weighed tons and tons of pounds. He self-inflicted his body by fasting for 40 days and 40 nights to prepare for his ministry.

Prudence should always be practiced because there can be a sinful pride in it. The Spiritual Director should know of all penances, not just great ones because this pride can appear in all penances and not just that which is called "extraordinary" like the cilice.

[Carmeliteheart726]

Thank you for posting that. There are few things that we know about the saints. I did not know St. Therese whipped herself. It's not mentioned at all in "Story of a Soul." It's interesting that you should mention that there are some sisters who hold out their arms in prayer for extended periods. I know of a few orders that do this too:

Sisters of Reparation in Steubenville, OH
Poor Clare Colettine Nuns in Belleville, IL (I am considering this order)

I guess I just don't understand corporal mortification. It's not something I grew up around at all, and I guess I am fearful of it. The idea of whips and chains is intimidating to me, but the more I learn about these things, the more I understand. My fear slowly melts away. I think about doing little penances sometimes that can't be harmful. I've struggled with an addiction up until 3 weeks ago, but I still get temptations to go back to that sinful way. I've thought about wearing a rubber band around my wrist and snapping it everytime I get tempted. I've heard it helps, too.

Yes, I think you are correct about things we see in movies infiltrating our thoughts. When I thought of corporal mortification, to be honest, I was thinking of the brother in "The Da Vinci Code" who wore a scratchy habit, whipped himself with a clawed flagellum, and wrapped the cilice so tightly around his leg that it drew blood. I've even seen the pictures of the cilices on the website that was posted, and they have little claws, so I imagine they dig in somehow into the skin.

I know of some 1990 Carmels who practice mortification by sleeping on boards, in fact, I think Valaparaiso is one of them. Brooklyn might be too, but I am not sure. The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal sleep with their mattresses on the floor pointing towards a crucifix on the wall. I've seen the pictures, and I wondered if the Sisters of the Renewal do the same. I think that's a beautiful practice. I guess there are just more things that I am comfortable with, and some I am not.

I know I am selfish. I am perhaps one of the weakest people in God's service, but I hope I am on the path to sainthood, because that is what I am striving for. My addiction was forgiven in Confession and I received graces (I could feel them, too ) when I was in there. I have not done anything towards my addiction in 3 weeks and 2 days. Sure, I struggle. But I get past it with prayer.

I am making the Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary as described by St. Louis de Montfort and when I do, I am planning to wear a little iron or silver chain around my wrist to help remind me that I am all His. I am in His service, and Mary is my Mother. I can't wait!

[rosamundi]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1722200' date='Dec 8 2008, 07:42 AM']Saints who practiced the form of corporal mortification that is the cilice/discipline are many: Bl. Mother Teresa, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Padre Pio, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Teresa of the Andes, St. Francis de Sales, St. Veronica Guliani, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, St. Gemma Galgani, St. John of the Cross, Bl. Elizabeth of the Trinity, Bl. Catherine Emmerich, St. Margaret Mary, St. John Vianney, St. Josemaria Escriva, St. Jerome, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Thomas More, Saint Dominic Loricatus, etc. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.[/quote]

Yes, but there is a difference between being a member of an Order, who practices corporeal disciplines under the direction of a spiritual advisor who knows you very well, and buying a cilice or a whip off the internet and using it with no direction or advice from someone older and wiser. I would be concerned about people seeing that link, and, with the best of intentions, buying something off the site and doing themselves physical or spiritual harm.

My advice (and that, along with £2.00, will get you a medium cappucino at Starbucks), is to avoid these sorts of physical penances until a religious superior or spiritual advisor says they are OK. Buying something like this of the internet and using it with no clear direction on how to use it is not a good idea.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='rosamundi' post='1722320' date='Dec 8 2008, 03:45 PM']Yes, but there is a difference between being a member of an Order, who practices corporeal disciplines under the direction of a spiritual advisor who knows you very well, and buying a cilice or a whip off the internet and using it with no direction or advice from someone older and wiser. I would be concerned about people seeing that link, and, with the best of intentions, buying something off the site and doing themselves physical or spiritual harm.

My advice (and that, along with £2.00, will get you a medium cappucino at Starbucks), is to avoid these sorts of physical penances until a religious superior or spiritual advisor says they are OK. Buying something like this of the internet and using it with no clear direction on how to use it is not a good idea.[/quote]

Amen.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='rosamundi' post='1722320' date='Dec 8 2008, 10:45 AM']Yes, but there is a difference between being a member of an Order, who practices corporeal disciplines under the direction of a spiritual advisor who knows you very well, and buying a cilice or a whip off the internet and using it with no direction or advice from someone older and wiser. I would be concerned about people seeing that link, and, with the best of intentions, buying something off the site and doing themselves physical or spiritual harm.

My advice (and that, along with £2.00, will get you a medium cappucino at Starbucks), is to avoid these sorts of physical penances until a religious superior or spiritual advisor says they are OK. Buying something like this of the internet and using it with no clear direction on how to use it is not a good idea.[/quote]

With all things prudence and talking with one's spiritual director. I mentioned that at the end of my post. No one should do any of these things without consulting their spiritual director. The thing that is good to know about the website is that if someone does get permission to do these things (which is rare) then they would know where to get them. You are absolutely right.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721116' date='Dec 6 2008, 07:06 PM']It has long been abandoned by the Church, and it's frowned upon.[/quote]nope, not at all.

[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721116' date='Dec 6 2008, 07:06 PM']Those who wish to practice it should be of a SOUND mind and body and have the go-ahead from not only their priest or spiritual advisor, but their doctor as well.[/quote]yes, as long as your priest/spiritual advisor are practicing Catholics (in that they practice what the Church teaches).
[quote name='moon_child_anne' post='1721187' date='Dec 6 2008, 08:34 PM']Has anyone else ever wanted to wear one of these to church?

Peace,
Anne[/quote]
off topic, but i just purchased a beautiful one from [url="http://garlandsofgrace.com"]Garlands of Grace[/url] for $10.99.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1722293' date='Dec 8 2008, 01:14 AM']I guess I just don't understand corporal mortification.[/quote]corporal mortification can also mean taking only cold showers, wearing of hair shirts, drinking coffee without sugar, skipping seconds or desserts, not eating between meals, etc.

[url="http://www.speroforum.com/wiki/default.aspx/SperoWiki/CorporalMortification.html"]here is a good article[/url]:
[quote]Jesus invites all Christians to help him carry the cross. It's true that for most of us there are plenty of crosses in our daily lives, and we don't need to invent new ones. Nevertheless, [b]it's a good and longstanding Christian practice to deny ourselves some simple pleasures in order to fortify our will, remind ourselves of the passing nature of this world's goods, unite ourselves to the sufferings of the Lord in his passion, and to offer atonement for our sins.[/b] This is the purpose of the ancient practice of fasting and abstaining from meat, for example.

It's interesting that many people understand the need to deny themselves sweets and excessive amounts of food and to get up early in the morning, regardless of the weather, to run miles and miles, enduring great physical pain. They will submit to painful operations and medical treatments, even to the point of injecting poisons (chemotherapy, botox) into their bodies. They do all these things to preserve or restore their physical health, or even just their beauty. Yet they recoil at the idea of doing things that cause far less physical discomfort if the motivation is spiritual in nature. These are the people who don't understand and are horrified at the practice of corporal mortification.

It seems to me that the controversy over the use of these means of mortification arises from the fact that they're intended to fortify the soul rather than the body, and they don't involve the use of Spandex® or a membership in a health spa. However, these are traditional means used by many saints in the church's history, and [b]even if they aren't used quite so much today, that doesn't diminish their value.[/b][/quote]
it also says:
[quote]It's true that these types of corporal mortifications are not for everyone. In Opus Dei, only numeraries and associates use them and [b]they must ask permission to do so more frequently than prescribed.[/b] It is my understanding that supernumeraries are not allowed to use them.[/quote]
of which i want to highlight in particular.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh#Christianity"]wikipedia[/url] has an entry on this (of course, with all things wikipedia, double check the sources.) it has some good quotes from saints, and popes, on mortification.

Pope John Paul II, of course, wrote greatly of the salvific meaning of suffering in his encyclical [u][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html"]Salvifici Doloris[/url][/u].

St. Paul wrote also on 'chastisement' of the body.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
also in the [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#2015"]Catechism[/url]:
[quote]IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS

2012 "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64

2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66

In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ's gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called "mystical" because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - "the holy mysteries" - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

[b]2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:[/b]

[quote]He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69[/quote]

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71[/quote]

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
i would just like to add that corporal mortification has always had a place in the Church and always will. there are small corporal mortifications that everyone can do (like those i listed: cold showers, not eating seconds, etc.). the larger/deeper the mortification (use of the cilice or discipline) [b]should always be taken under advisement of a spiritual director[/b], though. but do not dismiss corporal mortification as a 'product of the past that the Church does not believe in anymore'. this could not be further from the truth. God bless.

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1722619' date='Dec 8 2008, 04:23 PM']+J.M.J.+
i would just like to add that corporal mortification has always had a place in the Church and always will. there are small corporal mortifications that everyone can do (like those i listed: cold showers, not eating seconds, etc.). the larger/deeper the mortification (use of the cilice or discipline) [b]should always be taken under advisement of a spiritual director[/b], though. but do not dismiss corporal mortification as a 'product of the past that the Church does not believe in anymore'. this could not be further from the truth. God bless.[/quote]

I think you misunderstood me. I believe in fasting and abstinence around Easter and Lent and such, but I do not refer to these things as corporal mortification. When I think of the word "Corporal", the "corporal punishment" thing pops into my head and I immediately think of a child getting the paddle at school, like the olden days. LOL. That's why, I think of "corporal" mortification as physically injuring oneself. Forgive me if that is not entirely true, as you have said. I think of passing on seconds, no sugar in coffee, cold showers, etc. as "penances," which I think are the same thing.

I just came back to the Church in Full Communion last year, so I am trying to immerse myself in the Church history. This is just not a part I have read up on yet. Plus, even though I was baptized, had First Communion, confirmed, had CCD classes and such, I have not learned as much as I would have liked to. There was a lot that was not included because of lack of time, or the curriculum wasn't specific.

God bless!

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1722611' date='Dec 8 2008, 11:11 PM']off topic, but i just purchased a beautiful one from [url="http://garlandsofgrace.com"]Garlands of Grace[/url] for $10.99.[/quote]

Ok, when I first saw this I thought, "Lil Red bought one of those chains?!"

[Thomist-in-Training]

There's a book from the fifties called "My Beloved" by a Carmelite nun, sort of the same as "A Right to be Merry" but a little more personal and not as famous, and the author mentions matter-of-factly that the nuns take the discipline simultaneously in choir with the lights off (maybe once a week, or a few times a month). I was a little surprised to realize it was all together. I think that's when St Therese would have perhaps? as referred to in the quote from bio above. But anyways it's not "long outdated and discarded" and as mentioned various communities have the same practice today.