God And Hell And Free Choice

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732920' date='Dec 20 2008, 08:49 PM']Alright.

While that is interesting I don't think that help's KoC's argument for the existance of God.[/quote]
It only helps if you subscribe to ideas inherent to the perennial philosophy.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732925' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:53 PM']It only helps if you subscribe to ideas inherent to the perennial philosophy.[/quote]

exactly

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732920' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:49 PM']Alright.

While that is interesting I don't think that help's KoC's argument for the existance of God.[/quote]

It does help it does not prove absolutely.

[Apotheoun]

Whether one accepts the perennial "wisdom" or not, those who do accept it have adopted a coherent ontological system. Sadly, most of the opponents of this system have adopted an approach to metaphysics that is incoherent.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732937' date='Dec 21 2008, 12:03 AM']Whether one accepts the perennial "wisdom" or not, those who do accept it have adopted a coherent ontological system. Sadly, most of the opponents of this system have adopted an approach to metaphysics that is incoherent.[/quote]

I agree that most modern philosophical systems are metaphysically incoherant.

Particularly Hume's empericism and the positivists movements

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732833' date='Dec 20 2008, 10:24 PM']It's not really complex at all.[/quote]

You're naive.

[quote]Read up on the church fathers of salvation, they are unanimously agree there is no salvation outside the church. There may be vague hope to the pagan stuck on the island, but no salvation for jew, or any schismatic or heretic or any kind. One must be subject to the roman pontiff. It's all there in history.[/quote]

Your private interpretation of what "no salvation outside of the Church" means is in error. It does not mean that anyone not listed on a parish registry goes to hell!

I recommend you remove your ignorance:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"][u]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT[/u][/url]

[quote]If the ecf's knew the church was teaching one can be both Muslim and Catholic they would throw up. It's a modern teaching of a church trying to keep pace with change.[/quote]
"Change" is exactly what you're trying to demonstrate but there is no change in Church teaching. The problem is in your personal understanding which is the result of ignorance.

The early Church Father, Justin Martyr, called Socrates a CHRISTIAN! He said that nearly two millenia ago! So much for the Church trying to keep pace with change

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='mortify' post='1733144' date='Dec 21 2008, 01:49 PM']Your private interpretation of what "no salvation outside of the Church" means is in error. It does not mean that anyone not listed on a parish registry goes to hell!

I recommend you remove your ignorance:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"][u]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT[/u][/url][/quote]


This, and everything Zigga said. I really wish bonkers would respond to Zigga's posts, if anything it would mean Zigga would post more.

Ok, 11 pages later I have more questions. I hope the answers to these will also clear up some of the things Bonkers is also having trouble with.

Explain justice. Why is punishment (in any flavor) necessary? I need this made clear.

Did Original Sin condemn our natures? How? What was the nature of the rift between humanity and God that original sin caused - and then subsequent sin. How does this rift demand death and punishment for us (and therefore how is this punishment just). Specifically, what was the situation for why we needed a redeemer - why couldn't we save ourselves.

I know like.. half of these answers, but i still have holes.

This is how I see the situation. We screwed up, knowingly and of our own free will. This screw-up demands punishment out of justice. This system is made by God. There is a way out for humanity, but humanity cant do it themselves. God has to do it for them. It makes it seem like God is just as bound up into the rules of justice as we are. It seems contradictory for God to be bound up by anything.

Ok. Go!

Edited December 22, 2008 by Sirklawd

[bonkers]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1732268' date='Dec 19 2008, 08:40 PM']You need to broaden your understanding of "Church". "Church" means anyone within the Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God, the Catholic Church. Outside of that Body there is no salvation. How do we get into that Body? By baptism and, subsequently, maintaining a state of grace by not deliberately rejecting God. How are we baptized? Ordinarily by water. Extraordinarily by blood or desire. A person who has not been convicted of the need for baptism (like anyone incapable of coming to such a conviction) while sincerely pursuing Truth / Charity may be baptized by blood or desire (blood, by martyrdom for the sake of some good and desire, by the sincere pursuit of Truth / Charity).[/quote]

What is the historical basis for believing in baptism of desire specifically pertaining to those who are seeking truth?

[quote]As far as the theology surrounding the possibility of universal salvation, I recommend the book by the esteemed theologian (beloved by our current Holy Father) Hans Urs Von Balthasar, [i]Dare We Hope That All May Be Saved: With A Short Discourse on Hell[/i] published by Ignatius Press. The presumption of universal salvation is indeed a heresy but the hope is not. Far from it, actually. The Church has a rich theological tradition behind such a possibility. But it remains only a hopeful possibility (and moreover, Purgatory is nothing to smirk at), despite how well its probabilities may be argued. And you are of course correct in pointing out the far more prevalent expectation of a limited number of souls in Heaven.[/quote]

I think I will be sticking with the far more prevalent expectation.

[quote]That which has not been defined by dogma is still up in the air. That which has been defined is still up for re-evaluation and subsequent clarification. The nature of Hell has never been defined and speculations surrounding Hell have varied wildly. We know Hell is a real option. We know that it [i]seems [/i]that many people choose it. We know that Hell is a terrible choice, full of unfathomable suffering. We know we can hope for the salvation of all. And that is all we know. The rest is speculation and interpretation.[/quote]

Well, if you can admit that which has not been defined by dogma is still up in the air, what basis do you have for rejecting Aquinas and Augustine and their literal depiction of hell? Moreover, what historical and theological basis do you and you have for elevating your own private interpretation of what hell those of the church fathers? Why even debate it? If Aquinas and Augustine thought a firely hell was reconciable with a just, merciful, loving god, why can't you do the same? It seems you must concede this point, that your and Dr Hahn understanding fo what hell might be is more for your own easing of conscience, rather than taht which may be defined by dogma.

[mortify]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1733815' date='Dec 22 2008, 12:15 PM']Ok, 11 pages later I have more questions. I hope the answers to these will also clear up some of the things Bonkers is also having trouble with.[/quote]

I recommend Frank Sheed's, [u]Theology for Beginners[/u]

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1733144' date='Dec 21 2008, 12:49 PM']You're naive.



Your private interpretation of what "no salvation outside of the Church" means is in error. It does not mean that anyone not listed on a parish registry goes to hell!

I recommend you remove your ignorance:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"][u]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT[/u][/url]


"Change" is exactly what you're trying to demonstrate but there is no change in Church teaching. The problem is in your personal understanding which is the result of ignorance.

The early Church Father, Justin Martyr, called Socrates a CHRISTIAN! He said that nearly two millenia ago! So much for the Church trying to keep pace with change [/quote]

I think you must be denial or something, or you just can't see the obvious through your tainted vision. EWTN doesn't give the full story, just the slanted one obviously in favour of the current position. Do objective research (use objective sources) and tell me church taught non-Catholics could be saved. Show me ONE source, from a pope, prior to the 1800's, that taught the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics. Just one.. its' possible one existed, I haven't even done the proper research, so here's your big chance to debunk me. Here's my evidence..

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved." (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church." (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

"He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God." (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation." (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ...Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth." (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

Then, as though to set this constant teaching of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes "in concrete," so to speak, we have the following definitions from the Solemn Magisterium of the Church:

Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): "One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved..."

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): "[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1733144' date='Dec 21 2008, 12:49 PM']You're naive.



Your private interpretation of what "no salvation outside of the Church" means is in error. It does not mean that anyone not listed on a parish registry goes to hell!

I recommend you remove your ignorance:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"][u]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT[/u][/url]


"Change" is exactly what you're trying to demonstrate but there is no change in Church teaching. The problem is in your personal understanding which is the result of ignorance.

The early Church Father, Justin Martyr, called Socrates a CHRISTIAN! He said that nearly two millenia ago! So much for the Church trying to keep pace with change [/quote]

I think you must be denial or something, or you just can't see the obvious through your tainted vision. EWTN doesn't give the full story, just the slanted one obviously in favour of the current position. Do objective research (use objective sources) and tell me church taught non-Catholics could be saved. Show me ONE source, from a pope, prior to the 1800's, that taught the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics. Just one.. its' possible one existed, I haven't even done the proper research, so here's your big chance to debunk me. Here's my evidence..

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved." (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church." (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

"He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God." (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation." (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ...Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth." (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

Then, as though to set this constant teaching of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes "in concrete," so to speak, we have the following definitions from the Solemn Magisterium of the Church:

Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): "One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved..."

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): "[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1733863' date='Dec 22 2008, 01:00 PM']I recommend Frank Sheed's, [u]Theology for Beginners[/u][/quote]

Here's one for you..

www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1733867' date='Dec 22 2008, 02:10 PM']I think you must be denial or something, or you just can't see the obvious through your tainted vision. EWTN doesn't give the full story, just the slanted one obviously in favour of the current position. Do objective research (use objective sources) and tell me church taught non-Catholics could be saved. Show me ONE source, from a pope, prior to the 1800's, that taught the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics. Just one.. its' possible one existed, I haven't even done the proper research, so here's your big chance to debunk me. Here's my evidence..[/quote]

You're having difficulty understanding because you're bent on demonstrating a change in theology. For this reason you're pushing an understanding of the word "Church" which we don't accept. People can be united to the Mystical Body of Christ, and therefore be members of the Church without being *visible* members. I already provided you an example from Justin Martyr, who called Socrates a Christian.

Nothing you quoted contradicts this.

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1733868' date='Dec 22 2008, 02:12 PM']Here's one for you..

www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004[/quote]

Here's one for you...

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Whats-So-Great-About-Christianity/dp/1596985178/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229970020&sr=8-8"][u]http://www.amazon.com/Whats-So-Great-About-Christianity/[/u][/url]

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1733868' date='Dec 22 2008, 02:12 PM']Here's one for you..

www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004[/quote]


No thanks. Atheism does not provide answers. It only delights in finding ways out of established beliefs. If God is an invention, the belief that there is no God does not provide the answers to the questions the 'invention' of God was the answer to. Without a God, nothing matters.



[quote name='mortify' post='1733874' date='Dec 22 2008, 02:23 PM']Here's one for you...

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Whats-So-Great-About-Christianity/dp/1596985178/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229970020&sr=8-8"][u]http://www.amazon.com/Whats-So-Great-About-Christianity/[/u][/url]

[/quote]

lol thanks. and 'theology for beginners' eh? were my questions that noobish? I'd really like to not wait weeks for answers to those questions.



and incase people are caught up in Bonkers' long posts. I believe his arguement is 'a loving God shouldnt inflict punishment'. He understands (and accepts?) the idea that hell is a spirtual or emotional pain caused by loss, but he believes the pain in hell is bodily to, and it is this inflicted bodily pain that he cant reconcile with a loving God. am i right, bonkers?

I would also like an answer to this, as I believe it has to do with my questions on God's Justice. I personally dont care about salvation outside the church, now. I think it's off-topic.