God And Hell And Free Choice

[Sirklawd]

I've been talking about the faith with a friend of mind, and one of the main sticking points for him is how can a loving God have a Hell. I've tried to explain how we send ourselves there of our own freewill and to force people into a loving union with him violates love and free will, but he sees that God is only pretending offering two choices. That is not really a choice if one choice is death, and that violates freewill to begin with - cuz its not really a choice.

Make sense?

So I'm looking to hear how you all would respond to this. I feel like I ran out of ammunition, because it just sort of makes sense to me that an ordered world needs consequence for injustice..that love needs to be protected

thoughts?

[bonkers]

No one chooses to go to hell. It's actually contrary to human nature to want to suffer for all eternity, unless you suffer a perverse form of masochism. It's not a conscious decision, no one decides "I want to go to hell", therefore it's not choice. If people aren't fully aware of the consequences of their actions, it's not free will. Does it occur to you no one actually believes they are going to hell? I personally don't believe in hell, so it's impossible for me to choose something I don't believe in. Choices always involve conscious approval, ALWAYS! That means knowing the alternatives and giving conscious consent to the consquences of that choice. The "hell is a choice" thing is just so ridiculous.

[CatherineM]

I believe that Hell is just the absence of God or an eternity of nothingness, and only those who consciously turn their back on God will end up there. Christians expect, and want to spend eternity with God. Atheists believe that when they die there will be nothing. So, in a certain way, we are both going to get what we want and expect.

[Paddington]

God not forcing His will on people explains people not getting in to Heaven, but it takes a lot more to explain people going to Hell. Why not annihilation?

[bonkers]

Well, according to the bible and thousands of years of tradition, hell is a place of fire and brimstone. Unless god made a mistake? Or he deliberately tries to deceive us by promoting a doctrine which is impossible to rationalise with his omnibenevolent nature and free will?

[Sirklawd]

lol im glad i woke up the people who agree with my friend.

as far as I understand it, God is the source of all love and all things good, right? So wouldn't it make sense that if we chose to not be with Him, that we'd end up without all things good? Not that it's a punishment exactly but a choice to be removed from God and everything that brings us pleasure or comfort?

I believe that all of the fire and brimstone is merely a metaphor to help people better understand these ideas of not being with God.

does anyone besides me have counter-arguements?

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1725370' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:15 PM']God not forcing His will on people explains people not getting in to Heaven, but it takes a lot more to explain people going to Hell. Why not annihilation?[/quote]

I would say that annihilation is worse than hell, but most people nowadays (who arnt religious) probably wouldnt agree with that. like they think not-existing is just going to sleep or something.

[frenchfry]

God created us with the intention of our choosing to be with Him for eternity. If there were only one possible destination - heaven - that we went to, we would have no free will. So God had to create an alternate destination for people who did not choose heaven. Like you said, this is just the absence of everthing good - there can be abolutely nothing common between heaven and hell or you are forced to have that thing, if that makes any sense. God loves us so much because we have free will, so we are more like He is, sort of like we love people more than we love dogs. If there were no hell, we would have no free will, so God would not be able to love us as much, and we would not be able to love Him at all!

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='frenchfry' post='1725535' date='Dec 11 2008, 03:11 PM']God created us with the intention of our choosing to be with Him for eternity. If there were only one possible destination - heaven - that we went to, we would have no free will. So God had to create an alternate destination for people who did not choose heaven. Like you said, this is just the absence of everthing good - there can be abolutely nothing common between heaven and hell or you are forced to have that thing, if that makes any sense. God loves us so much because we have free will, so we are more like He is, sort of like we love people more than we love dogs. If there were no hell, we would have no free will, so God would not be able to love us as much, and we would not be able to love Him at all![/quote]

I understand that, and you understand that, but lets pretend that the person in questioned, after reading that is still like "doesnt seem like love to me" or "doesnt seem like free will to me"

what would you do then? im good at certain specific areas of the faith, but this broadspectrum apologetics/evangilization im stumped on.

[Paddington]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1725523' date='Dec 11 2008, 02:53 PM']I would say that annihilation is worse than hell, but most people nowadays (who arnt religious) probably wouldnt agree with that. like they think not-existing is just going to sleep or something.[/quote]

What do you say 'just going to sleep,' 'not existing' and 'annihilation' mean?
I found your post confusing.

[Ziggamafu]

Something I have found fascinating that is hinted at in various writings in Church history - Scott Hahn seems to be a fan of the idea - is the notion that Hell and Heaven are two experiences of the same state; that of being either drawn or cast into the eternal and infinite love of God. Many scriptures refer to God in terms of consuming fire. The highest angels, closest to God, are the seraphim ("burning ones"). The thought then is that when we die, we all are faced with the glory of Almighty God; those who die in a state of aversion to that glory (i.e. mortal sin) find it terrible and want to escape, but cannot. Those who die in a state of grace but with attachments to sin find it both glorious and terrible at the same time, but only for a "time" in that their attachments are burned away by the purgation of the divine vision they longingly, if painfully, embrace. Those that die perfectly in a state of grace dive ever deeper into the "fires" of God's love.

In other words:

Hell is the experience of Divine Charity as unfathomably terrible; forever having one's back turned to it but never being able to escape.

Purgatory is the same experience as terrible, but alluring; facing it head on with joy and hope in the midst of the suffering it brings.

Heaven is the same experience as everlasting bliss and perfection.

I like this idea, as it seems to make sense that nobody - even those that choose Hell - would be able to "outrun" God's presence or "escape" God's love.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1726239' date='Dec 11 2008, 11:16 PM']Something I have found fascinating that is hinted at in various writings in Church history - Scott Hahn seems to be a fan of the idea - is the notion that Hell and Heaven are two experiences of the same state; that of being either drawn or cast into the eternal and infinite love of God. Many scriptures refer to God in terms of consuming fire. The highest angels, closest to God, are the seraphim ("burning ones"). The thought then is that when we die, we all are faced with the glory of Almighty God; those who die in a state of aversion to that glory (i.e. mortal sin) find it terrible and want to escape, but cannot. Those who die in a state of grace but with attachments to sin find it both glorious and terrible at the same time, but only for a "time" in that their attachments are burned away by the purgation of the divine vision they longingly, if painfully, embrace. Those that die perfectly in a state of grace dive ever deeper into the "fires" of God's love.

In other words:

Hell is the experience of Divine Charity as unfathomably terrible; forever having one's back turned to it but never being able to escape.

Purgatory is the same experience as terrible, but alluring; facing it head on with joy and hope in the midst of the suffering it brings.

Heaven is the same experience as everlasting bliss and perfection.

I like this idea, as it seems to make sense that nobody - even those that choose Hell - would be able to "outrun" God's presence or "escape" God's love.[/quote]

that's generally what i tend to believe.
expressed very well.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1726239' date='Dec 11 2008, 11:16 PM']Something I have found fascinating that is hinted at in various writings in Church history - Scott Hahn seems to be a fan of the idea - is the notion that Hell and Heaven are two experiences of the same state; that of being either drawn or cast into the eternal and infinite love of God. Many scriptures refer to God in terms of consuming fire. The highest angels, closest to God, are the seraphim ("burning ones"). The thought then is that when we die, we all are faced with the glory of Almighty God; those who die in a state of aversion to that glory (i.e. mortal sin) find it terrible and want to escape, but cannot. Those who die in a state of grace but with attachments to sin find it both glorious and terrible at the same time, but only for a "time" in that their attachments are burned away by the purgation of the divine vision they longingly, if painfully, embrace. Those that die perfectly in a state of grace dive ever deeper into the "fires" of God's love.

In other words:

Hell is the experience of Divine Charity as unfathomably terrible; forever having one's back turned to it but never being able to escape.

Purgatory is the same experience as terrible, but alluring; facing it head on with joy and hope in the midst of the suffering it brings.

Heaven is the same experience as everlasting bliss and perfection.

I like this idea, as it seems to make sense that nobody - even those that choose Hell - would be able to "outrun" God's presence or "escape" God's love.[/quote]

that's generally what i tend to believe.
expressed very well.

[Selah]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1725368' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:14 PM']I believe that Hell is just the absence of God or an eternity of nothingness, and only those who consciously turn their back on God will end up there. Christians expect, and want to spend eternity with God. Atheists believe that when they die there will be nothing. So, in a certain way, we are both going to get what we want and expect.[/quote]

[frenchfry]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1726239' date='Dec 11 2008, 11:16 PM']Something I have found fascinating that is hinted at in various writings in Church history - Scott Hahn seems to be a fan of the idea - is the notion that Hell and Heaven are two experiences of the same state; that of being either drawn or cast into the eternal and infinite love of God.[/quote]

That is an incredible idea, and I never thought of it that way before!

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1726239' date='Dec 11 2008, 11:16 PM']Something I have found fascinating that is hinted at in various writings in Church history - Scott Hahn seems to be a fan of the idea - is the notion that Hell and Heaven are two experiences of the same state; that of being either drawn or cast into the eternal and infinite love of God. Many scriptures refer to God in terms of consuming fire. The highest angels, closest to God, are the seraphim ("burning ones"). The thought then is that when we die, we all are faced with the glory of Almighty God; those who die in a state of aversion to that glory (i.e. mortal sin) find it terrible and want to escape, but cannot. Those who die in a state of grace but with attachments to sin find it both glorious and terrible at the same time, but only for a "time" in that their attachments are burned away by the purgation of the divine vision they longingly, if painfully, embrace. Those that die perfectly in a state of grace dive ever deeper into the "fires" of God's love.

In other words:

Hell is the experience of Divine Charity as unfathomably terrible; forever having one's back turned to it but never being able to escape.

Purgatory is the same experience as terrible, but alluring; facing it head on with joy and hope in the midst of the suffering it brings.

Heaven is the same experience as everlasting bliss and perfection.

I like this idea, as it seems to make sense that nobody - even those that choose Hell - would be able to "outrun" God's presence or "escape" God's love.[/quote]


that is awesome! wow. it lines up perfectly with everything we know from scriptures and revelation about sin and God...thankusomuch.

[mortify]

Peace Sirklawd,

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1725331' date='Dec 11 2008, 11:19 AM']I've been talking about the faith with a friend of mind, and one of the main sticking points for him is how can a loving God have a Hell.[/quote]

I think the answer lies in free will.

This life is a brief interval for testing and growing. God has given us the free will to choose Him or reject Him.

The afterlife is merely a continuation of this life but in an infinitely more profound way. So if I die in union with God, that union continues to the hereafter but whereas on earth I could only have Faith, in Heaven I will *know* God. The same is true for those who reject God and lived a life separated from Him, when they die this separation continues. The eternal separation from God is what we call Hell.

Why is Hell so bad if so many are already living a life separated from Him? The answer is we are not yet aware of how Good God is, the fact is His Goodness remains incomprehensible. We don't know what it means to say God is Love, the Love that He is is infinite and perfect, beyond anything human's can fathom. When we die, our spiritual intellect is freed from the bodily intellect, and things become crystal clear to us. We will know that God is Infinite Love, and this will be an unimaginable joy for those who died in a state of grace. For those who die in eternal separation, this will be their greatest torment.

The torment of eternal separation is horrific, and we know that no one goes there who does not trully deserve it. Where as heaven is a gift that can't be earned, Hell *must* be earned. God works in many ways, some visible, and many invisible, and in fact often in ways that particular souls are unconscious of. Every soul receives the sufficient grace to make it to heaven, of that we can be assured of, but for this grace to be effective, it requires the cooperation of the soul.

Sadly, we know some souls will be obstinate even unto the point of death. God does not will them into Hell, they choose it themselves.

[mortify]

Peace Paddington,

[quote name='Paddington' post='1725370' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:15 PM']God not forcing His will on people explains people not getting in to Heaven, but it takes a lot more to explain people going to Hell. Why not annihilation?[/quote]

First it's a revealed truth that Hell exists and that the "second death," or spiritual death, is not annihilation but eternal separation from God and the pains of sense for particular sins. The greatest torment being the former.

The reason why annihilation doesn't occur is because the soul of man is spirit. A soul is simply the life principle of an organism but man's soul is a spirit and spirit is something immaterial, something God created to exist beyond the destruction of the body. Where as matter can perish, the spirit can not, and so it will exist in eternity either in union or in separation with God.

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1725375' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:20 PM']Well, according to the bible and thousands of years of tradition, hell is a place of fire and brimstone. Unless god made a mistake? Or he deliberately tries to deceive us by promoting a doctrine which is impossible to rationalise with his omnibenevolent nature and free will?[/quote]
I think you're criticizing your own false image of what we believe.

It's because of the infinite Goodness and Beauty of God that separation from Him in the afterlife will be such a torment.

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1725352' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:00 PM']No one chooses to go to hell. It's actually contrary to human nature to want to suffer for all eternity, unless you suffer a perverse form of masochism. It's not a conscious decision, no one decides "I want to go to hell", therefore it's not choice. If people aren't fully aware of the consequences of their actions, it's not free will. Does it occur to you no one actually believes they are going to hell?[/quote]

One chooses hell when one sins.

The essence of sin is turning away from God and turning towards one self. This is an act of willful separation from God, and unless a person seeks reconciliation this separation will continue into the afterlife. The separation from God is what we call Hell.

If a person performs a sinful act but they are sincerely ignorant of it being an offense to God, then that person is [i]not[/i] in a state of sin. God works in the souls of men in ways that we may not even be aware of, so that even Pagans living on deserted Islands are capable of knowing the will of God, and it can be done so through our conscience. If we go against what our conscience tells us is right, our conscience will condemn us in the end, and so one need not be a knowledgeable Christian to be judged.