God And Hell And Free Choice

[Guest]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1728159' date='Dec 15 2008, 04:54 AM']Using the ice cream analogy, if I have a choice between chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream, say I choose the chocolate ice cream, which unknowingly to me contains cyanide which kills me, I have not given consent to die, nor should I be held accountable for it.[/quote]


Ahh but you have many telling you right now the chocolate ice cream contains cyanide in it. Its up to you if you choose to eat it.
I find in your post as if you think God is going to send almost everyone to hell. That is not the case God is a God of Goodness and Love. He desires that all be saved. God is not going to send someone to hell who doesnt know the truth and hasnt had a chanch to hear the truth. On the otherhand those who hear the truth and willfuly reject it, well they are creating their own future not God yet they are still going to take part in and watch it play out for eternity. (forever)

* no one ever really dies * in the sence you will never be able to escape whatever destiny you create for yourself.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Guest

[bonkers]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1728262' date='Dec 15 2008, 12:57 PM']Ahh but you have many telling you right now the chocolate ice cream contains cyanide in it. Its up to you if you choose to eat it.[/quote]

OK, lets add four more flavoured ice creams to the equation. Cherry, lime, banana and vodka (couldn't think of anything else). Each ice cream has many telling me the other ice creams all contain cyanide, but there's doesn't. Who to believe? Where has my free choice gone? There is no objective criteria or testing method to determine which apples contain cyanide and which (if any) don't. So I choose blindly, which is not the same as free choice. I choose the one that is supported by reason and evidence, not superstition.

[quote]I find in your post as if you think God is going to send almost everyone to hell. That is not the case God is a God of Goodness and Love. He desires that all be saved. God is not going to send someone to hell who doesnt know the truth and hasnt had a chanch to hear the truth. On the otherhand those who hear the truth and willfuly reject it, well they are creating their own future not God yet they are still going to take part in and watch it play out for eternity. (forever)

* no one ever really dies * in the sence you will never be able to escape whatever destiny you create for yourself.[/quote]

I don't think god is sending almost all to hell. But acording to your theology, there is no salvation outside the church. A recent teaching that non-Catholics can be saved is inconsistent with traditional teaching. It's plainly clear in the catechism, one who has heard the gospel and refuses to believe in it goes to hell, and that those instances in which a non-Catholic may be saved are exceptions, not the norm.

[Guest]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1728327' date='Dec 15 2008, 02:02 PM']OK, lets add four more flavoured ice creams to the equation. Cherry, lime, banana and vodka (couldn't think of anything else). Each ice cream has many telling me the other ice creams all contain cyanide, but there's doesn't. Who to believe? Where has my free choice gone? There is no objective criteria or testing method to determine which apples contain cyanide and which (if any) don't. So I choose blindly, which is not the same as free choice. I choose the one that is supported by reason and evidence, not superstition.[/quote]


Well I think in these very strange times ( getting stranger everyday) you are going to have more and more choices everday. I think in the future (probally my lifetime) there is going to be supernatural stuff going on. The bible says that many are going to be coming in his name. They will perform signs and miracles and even fool the ellect. So If I were you I would try to find out which icecream is good right now. This is possible through a personal relationship with God through faith. It is very real yet if you have no faith then its not real at all. You have to take the steps forward to be able to see the progress. Again God is a God of love and he will pour his love out on you. But you have to choose to recieve it.

If I tell you that my grandma loves me but you do not know her or even know if she exist how can you belive me ? Yet I know my grandma loves me and I know this because she has shown me she loves me for the last 27 years. This comes through my relationship with her and her proving her love for me. God is the same way. Through a personal realtionship through Jesus Christ we come to find out how much God loves us.


[quote name='bonkers' post='1728327' date='Dec 15 2008, 02:02 PM']I don't think god is sending almost all to hell. But acording to your theology, there is no salvation outside the church. A recent teaching that non-Catholics can be saved is inconsistent with traditional teaching. It's plainly clear in the catechism, one who has heard the gospel and refuses to believe in it goes to hell, and that those instances in which a non-Catholic may be saved are exceptions, not the norm.[/quote]

God loves those who love him. I think its that simple.

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1728327' date='Dec 15 2008, 02:02 PM']OK, lets add four more flavoured ice creams to the equation. Cherry, lime, banana and vodka (couldn't think of anything else). Each ice cream has many telling me the other ice creams all contain cyanide, but there's doesn't. Who to believe? Where has my free choice gone? There is no objective criteria or testing method to determine which apples contain cyanide and which (if any) don't. So I choose blindly, which is not the same as free choice. I choose the one that is supported by reason and evidence, not superstition.

I don't think god is sending almost all to hell. But acording to your theology, there is no salvation outside the church. A recent teaching that non-Catholics can be saved is inconsistent with traditional teaching. It's plainly clear in the catechism, one who has heard the gospel and refuses to believe in it goes to hell, and that those instances in which a non-Catholic may be saved are exceptions, not the norm.[/quote]

Let me see if I can make some sense of all this for you. (and get my own thoughts on the matter organized at the same time).

I think the first thing that needs to be reiterated is that God isnt cold in his judgement. Everyone else has been trying to say this, but you dont seem to want to agree. God does not hold things against people who are ignorant of truth. God judges intention, he's the only one who can. The important thing though is that God has not left us dumb. We have reason, and with reason we can figure out the majority of right and wrong actions. Murder, for instance, can figured out as 'wrong' no matter who you are. Desert-island-dude can reason out that murder is wrong, and then go "but who cares", and murder desert-island-dude #2...

Good and Bad are not just adjectives assigned to actions by God. Something isnt 'wrong' because it sends you to hell. 'Wrong' consequences are when the purpose or nature of a created thing has been damaged, obstructed, or destroyed. The wronginess is something pertaining to this reality. God, and our life after death, exists outside of this reality. Our destination is tied directly to the respect we pay to God's will in this reality. A huge part of God's will is seen in all created things, and the nature and purpose assigned to those things by their creation. The rest of God's will is found out through revelation.

In this post im mostly speaking of the person who hasnt heard of Christianity, or doesnt get it completely

I would love for someone to take what I just said and make it make more sense. Eventually I will be able to, but im not there yet...

Edited December 15, 2008 by Sirklawd

[Formosus]

-Bonkers

I am sorry if you find my view "modern and liberal" but it is the view of the ancient fathers of the East. While St. Augustine is an important theologian, he only represents one aspect of one tradition in the Catholic Faith. The Byzantine christians do not use, nor have ever used augustinian theological terms or motiffs.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Formosus' post='1729306' date='Dec 15 2008, 10:45 PM']I am sorry if you find my view "modern and liberal" but it is the view of the ancient fathers of the East. While St. Augustine is an important theologian, he only represents one aspect of one tradition in the Catholic Faith. The Byzantine christians do not use, nor have ever used augustinian theological terms or motiffs.[/quote]
Well said.

[Marelise]

Apotheoun, Are we not allowed to Balaam's ass and rebuke the errant prophets here?

[Apotheoun]

Marelise,

Yes, fraternal correction is a work of mercy.

God bless,
Todd

[Hassan]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1727970' date='Dec 14 2008, 11:20 PM']Aquinas also taught Limbo. Ask anyone what they most fear about hell? They will all say the lake of fire. Humans fear physical pain more than loss.



Not at all. I don't have to believe in god to make comments regarding his fictional characteristics.[/quote]


If I may, while humans on earth fear physical torment more than abstractions like "seperation" from God, this is an epistemic matter. I would assume Christians would say that this epistemic shortcoming is overcome in the afterlife and an individual is awakened to the horror of seperation from God.

I ono

[bonkers]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1728379' date='Dec 15 2008, 03:23 PM']Let me see if I can make some sense of all this for you. (and get my own thoughts on the matter organized at the same time).

I think the first thing that needs to be reiterated is that God isnt cold in his judgement. Everyone else has been trying to say this, but you dont seem to want to agree. God does not hold things against people who are ignorant of truth. God judges intention, he's the only one who can. The important thing though is that God has not left us dumb. We have reason, and with reason we can figure out the majority of right and wrong actions. Murder, for instance, can figured out as 'wrong' no matter who you are. Desert-island-dude can reason out that murder is wrong, and then go "but who cares", and murder desert-island-dude #2...[/quote]

Yes, but arguing god isn't cold in his judgement doesn't make his judgement fair or just. My belief is that all people are fundamentally ignorant in many many ways. The vast majority of people live according to what they perceive to be the truth and consciously do not believe or understand that the god condemns "good people" to hell. You say god judges intention, does he judge sub-conscious desires, or conscious choices and actions? No one consciously chooses a path they believe will merit eternal punishment, they are ignorant of this, and you cannot fairly and justly punish people for all eternity for being ignorant. You might say "we do not know how or who god will judge", but we have specific instructions in the bible and CCC for obtaining salvation. The sacraments aren't just symbolic rituals, they are literal requirements (I'm speaking generally, I'm aware sometimes god is flexible with his mercy), but what we are led by these sacraments, by the teachings of Jesus and catholic tradition is that Catholicism is the sole path to salvation, and there is no salvation outside of the church.. except for the odd case of the dude stuck on the desert island. Apostates like me and others here who have rejected Catholicism here are going to hell, and in that instance I would argue gods judgement is not only unfair and unjust, but cold, because he allowed the truth to be littered with all sorts of fallacies like bible contradictions, historal innaccuracies, bad poped, bad doctrines, explolitation, wars and all sorts of things that cause people to rationally doubt and question.

Consider if when you died, you find yourself in a lake of fire and sulphur. Would you recognise Allah's judgement as fair and just and even.. loving? Wouldn't you feel cheated, deceived and lied to in some way. If Muslims were to argue that you were exposed to Islam, and that you had free choice, and that you [b]chose[/b] hell, wouldn't you have at least felt ignorant of the truth, rather than having willingly chosen a path to hell? Would you defend Allah's judgement the same as you would defend your gods?

[Guest]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1731130' date='Dec 18 2008, 08:57 AM']No one consciously chooses a path they believe will merit eternal punishment, they are ignorant of this.[/quote]


really ??
i think thats just a bit nieve

[bonkers]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1731132' date='Dec 18 2008, 08:01 AM']really ??
i think thats just a bit nieve[/quote]

Nope. Most people think they are going to heaven, especially the one's that line the pews every Sunday morning yet vote for Obama.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1728093' date='Dec 15 2008, 01:41 AM']Eastern Christians see things a bit differently than how EWTN puts it. For Eastern Christians both the saved and the damned participate in the vision of God, because God's energy is everywhere and in everything. It is our disposition that determines our fate. If a man has cooperated with God's energy throughout his life, he will receive ever-well-being (i.e., heaven), but if he has rejected God's love and fought against the divine energy that keeps him in being from moment to moment, he will experience ever-ill-being (i.e., hell).[/quote]

Is this the view of the early church fathers? Some references would be nice. But I have to say, some people just don't feel gods energy. I know I certainly don't, but I'm not any different morally than when I was Catholic. Probably just more lazy.

[Winchester]

Actually, the definition of God proves Him just. There are no moral rules beyond Him, since the moral rules that govern creation are His. You may argue this makes Him capricious, but you'd be wrong. You'd be wrong because, being The Good, God is always right.

God's judgements are informed by total knowledge. He is not affected by human deficiencies. He knows us better than we know ourselves.

[Guest]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1731133' date='Dec 18 2008, 09:04 AM']Nope. Most people think they are going to heaven, especially the one's that line the pews every Sunday morning yet vote for Obama. [/quote]

O so now your attacking Gods children who have faith and attend mass like they are called to do? I would expect that from an atheist though and a person without faith. (and again without faith there is now way you can even please God)

The people I was refering to are people who are wicked. People who murder and rob and steal and ruin peoples lives. People who are adulters and dont care because they are only concerned with pleasure. These are the peole who know they are going to hell for eternity. Wether they come out and say it doesnt matter. God writes his law into each and everyone one of us. People who are truelly evil know they are truely evil.

Edited December 18, 2008 by Guest

[Guest]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1731133' date='Dec 18 2008, 09:04 AM']Nope. Most people think they are going to heaven, especially the one's that line the pews every Sunday morning yet vote for Obama. [/quote]

O so now your attacking Gods children who have faith and attend mass like they are called to do? I would expect that from an atheist though and a person without faith. (and again without faith there is now way you can even please God)

The people I was refering to are people who are wicked. People who murder and rob and steal and ruin peoples lives. People who are adulters and dont care because they are only concerned with pleasure. These are the peole who know they are going to hell for eternity. Wether they come out and say it doesnt matter. God writes his law into each and everyone one of us. People who are truelly evil know they are truely evil.

Edited December 18, 2008 by Guest

[bonkers]

[quote]Actually, the definition of God proves Him just. There are no moral rules beyond Him, since the moral rules that govern creation are His. You may argue this makes Him capricious, but you'd be wrong. You'd be wrong because, being The Good, God is always right.[/quote]

By your reasoning god could condemn all to eternal fire but he would still be good because he himself says so. Used in this context gods goodness would not be good at all rather an empty word he uses to make himself feel superior.

[quote]God's judgements are informed by total knowledge. He is not affected by human deficiencies. He knows us better than we know ourselves.[/quote]

We are, and a [i]good[/i] god would not condemn us because of it.

[Winchester]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1731161' date='Dec 18 2008, 08:52 AM']By your reasoning god could condemn all to eternal fire but he would still be good because he himself says so. Used in this context gods goodness would not be good at all rather an empty word he uses to make himself feel superior.



We are, and a [i]good[/i] god would not condemn us because of it.[/quote]
Yes, no and [i]what[/i]?

Not my reasoning. Plato's. Socrates.

[Guest]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1731161' date='Dec 18 2008, 09:52 AM']By your reasoning god could condemn all to eternal fire but he would still be good because he himself says so. Used in this context gods goodness would not be good at all rather an empty word he uses to make himself feel superior.



We are, and a [i]good[/i] god would not condemn us because of it.[/quote]


Evil people deserve hell what dont you get about that ? Those who love God are not going to be forsaked by God. You have to LOVE HIM THOUGH. I can say I love my wife but if I cheat on her I dont really love her. God will even save people who didnt believe in him if he wants to. We know the destination of no souls. But we do know evil people and those outside of the church will go to hell. Its like knowing that a glass will break if you drop it ten feet off the ground on to cement.

[Winchester]

Actually, we all deserve Hell. That's justice. Some of us get Heaven. That's [i]mercy[/i].