God And Hell And Free Choice

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1732619' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:32 PM']There is a Muslim girl living in Saudi Arabia. Her entire life she was raised Muslim, heard the Gospel, the only thing she knows about Isa (Jesus) is the little she has heard from the Qur'an and Hadith and some old Catholic lady she met on a bus once who told her about Jesus was the Christ and salvation only being obtained through the Catholic Church. The little girl ran home terrified about this but then in class the next day she learned that Christians are polytheists, that we believe God is a man, that we worship statues and saints, and that our Bible has been so badly corrupted that literally there is nothing in it that reflects the revelation of God. The little girl, 9 years old, however loves Allah and does whatever she can to grow closer to Him. The only way she knows to grow closer to Him are through the tenets of her religion. So she prays often, performs dhikr, feeds the poor, counsels the weak, does things that we as Catholics would regard as good and noble despite differences in religion. But, she doesn't believe in Jesus, has not been baptized, and dies a Muslimah... she finds herself in hell burning and wailing and in suffering in intense flames?[/quote]

I've made some mods to your story. See if you can pick them up and let me know if you think a just, loving, merciful god would condemn this Allah loving little girl to hell.

[quote]God is loving, just, and merciful, and no one will suffer eternal punishment who does not deserve it.[/quote]

Which is everyone, except the god believing hedonists.

Edited December 20, 2008 by bonkers

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732625' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:47 PM']I've made some mods to your story. See if you can pick them up and let me know if you think a just, loving, merciful god would condemn this Allah loving little girl to hell.[/quote]

Did you read my post? lol

[quote]Which is everyone, except the god believing hedonists.[/quote]
I believe such a group is a proportionate minority.

[GodBeyondGod]

Let's find some common ground here before I jump into this debate.

Can we all agree that:

1. (If) hell exists it is the worse condition that can ever befall a human.

(IE, No condition here on earth can compare to what is in hell or the state of hell.)

and

2. it is eternal with no chance of reprieve.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think most here would find your premises okay to accept Godbeyond.

for, me, just noting, i might quibble with them a bit.

i could see hell and heaven being a continuum of scale. some are in the bad zone, and stuck there forever, and some can move out. now, if you deinfed hell as those stuck, then sure, it's forever. some might not be forever even though in that same zone though.
i'd also quibble that we're not sure that all will be there forever, as other debaters around here have argued. it's only be a proposition, thelogically, than something that is real.

also, i think people live hell on earth. so in that sense, it's the worst condition. but if you're standard of hell is afterlife only is the worst condition, i'm not sure i'd draw distinction etiehr.

semantics reallyu though.
i agree in geenral and in princple with them, even me.
as i'm sure most do.

go ahead arguing without me.
just noting.

Edited December 20, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[GodBeyondGod]

Ok, if everyone is on board for these two:
1. (If) hell exists it is the worse condition that can ever befall a human.


2. it is eternal with no chance of reprieve.


Let's continue. How do people get to hell?

a. Every human is at risk of hell depending on their actions and/or beliefs.

b. Every human by default is destined for hell or possibly Limbo in regard to infants (Original Sin doctrine).

c. Every human by default is destined for heaven and have to do something to merit hell.

Let me know if I overlooked anything.

[Hassan]

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 07:33 PM']Ok, if everyone is on board for these two:
1. (If) hell exists it is the worse condition that can ever befall a human.


2. it is eternal with no chance of reprieve.


Let's continue. How do people get to hell?

a. Every human is at risk of hell depending on their actions and/or beliefs.

b. Every human by default is destined for hell or possibly Limbo in regard to infants (Original Sin doctrine).

c. Every human by default is destined for heaven and have to do something to merit hell.

Let me know if I overlooked anything.[/quote]


© is incorrect from a Christian point of view.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732622' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:38 PM']You didn't choose to reject Islam. You made a mistake. You were ignorant of the truth. Even that you say you are not wrong, but that objectively speaking you might be, you are ignorant of your own ignorance. It's not your fault at all, you were just following your own convictions, using the reasoning faculties Allah gave you to live life according to what you truly and fully convinced to be true. When we speak about punishment, we speak about punishment for evil deeds, as a form of justice and correction. Are you admitting your decision to live your life according to what believe to be true, sincerely and honestly following your own convictions, that is a crime so terrible, so evil as to warrant an eternity in hell???? Please be honest in your answer.[/quote]

The "it's not my fault' is a modern believe, its always someone elses or something esles but not 'mine'. I willfully and knowingly reject the Allah of Islam. It is no mistake.

[GodBeyondGod]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732740' date='Dec 20 2008, 06:46 PM']© is incorrect from a Christian point of view.[/quote]


Yeah, I was trying to establish the possible view points so we could work on it from there. If c. is out of the equation then a. and b. can be the only possible Christian views.

[GodBeyondGod]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732764' date='Dec 20 2008, 07:25 PM']The "it's not my fault' is a modern believe, its always someone elses or something esles but not 'mine'. I willfully and knowingly reject the Allah of Islam. It is no mistake.[/quote]


I can see that. You decided Allah did not exist and you accept responsibility for that decision...

So, if Allah does exist and he punished you it would be because you decided he didn't exist and not of anything immoral you did... I think that is what Bonkers is getting at.

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1732627' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:52 PM']Did you read my post? lol[/quote]

Yeah, did you read mine?

[quote]I believe such a group is a proportionate minority.[/quote]

So the majority will be going to heaven? yay!

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732764' date='Dec 20 2008, 08:25 PM']The "it's not my fault' is a modern believe, its always someone elses or something esles but not 'mine'. I willfully and knowingly reject the Allah of Islam. It is no mistake.[/quote]

If you know Islam is true and Allah sent Muhammad as his messenger to bring the Qur'an to believers and reject it prefering hell then that is your free choice.

If you believe Islam is a false religion but it was actually true then that is a mistake
and you did not willfully and knowingly reject Allah.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:33 PM']Ok, if everyone is on board for these two:
1. (If) hell exists it is the worse condition that can ever befall a human.[/quote]I disagree. Non-existence is worse than hell. In fact, according to the Greek Fathers hell is a form of salvation, i.e., it is salvation from non-being (cf. St. John Chrysostom, Ninth Homily on First Corinthians).

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:33 PM']2. it is eternal with no chance of reprieve.[/quote]I agree.

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:33 PM']Let's continue. How do people get to hell?

a. Every human is at risk of hell depending on their actions and/or beliefs.[/quote]I agree.

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:33 PM']b. Every human by default is destined for hell or possibly Limbo in regard to infants (Original Sin doctrine).[/quote]I disagree. Eastern Christians have never accepted the Augustinian view of mankind as a "mass of damnation" after the ancestral sin.

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:33 PM']c. Every human by default is destined for heaven and have to do something to merit hell.[/quote]I basically agree with this comment, but would add that there will be degrees of glory in heaven that correspond to the gifts of grace received, and the level of ascetic practice lived, by each person.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732740' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:46 PM']© is incorrect from a Christian point of view.[/quote]
It is the Augustinian point of view. That said, not all Christians accept the teaching of St. Augustine.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732797' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:31 PM']It is the Augustinian point of view. That said, not all Christians accept the teaching of St. Augustine.[/quote]

Of course you are right, I did not think that out before posting.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732783' date='Dec 20 2008, 06:08 PM']If you believe Islam is a false religion but it was actually true then that is a mistake
and you did not willfully and knowingly reject Allah.[/quote]
As a matter of divine faith I accept the revelation of God in Christ as definitive. As a consequence, I hold that Mohammad is not a prophet, and Islam is a false religion, for there will be no new public revelation until the Parousia at the end of time.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732796' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:30 PM']I disagree. Non-existence is worse than hell. In fact, according to the Greek Fathers hell is a form of salvation, i.e., it is salvation from non-being (cf. St. John Chrysostom, Ninth Homily on First Corinthians).[/quote]


How? What is so bad about non-being. It's not eternal torment.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732800' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:36 PM']As a matter of divine faith I accept the revelation of God in Christ as definitive. As a consequence, I hold that Mohammad is not a prophet, and Islam is a false religion, for there will be no new public revelation until the Parousia at the end of time.[/quote]


Does that faith have a rational foundation?

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732773' date='Dec 20 2008, 08:50 PM']Yeah, did you read mine?[/quote]

So what did you make of Pope Pius IX's statement?
[quote]So the majority will be going to heaven? yay![/quote]
No.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732783' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:08 PM']If you know Islam is true and Allah sent Muhammad as his messenger to bring the Qur'an to believers and reject it prefering hell then that is your free choice.

If you believe Islam is a false religion but it was actually true then that is a mistake
and you did not willfully and knowingly reject Allah.[/quote]

From a traditional Catholic perspective that would simply not be the case for Jesus Christ and a Atheist. One could if he should chooses never believe and still willfully reject Christ, and no one else could be blamed for the atheist's mistake but himself. He could not use the modern sense of the word that it wasn't his fault when in fact it was.

Edited December 21, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732802' date='Dec 20 2008, 06:37 PM']Does that faith have a rational foundation?[/quote]
Faith is by its nature meta-rational, i.e., it is beyond human reason. But that does not mean that faith is irrational; instead, it simply means that faith, as a gift of divine energy, exceeds the created intellect of man. One who participates in God through faith becomes God in God.