God And Hell And Free Choice

[mortify]

From the Baltimore Catechism:
[b]
Q. 1379. What is Hell?[/b]
A. Hell is a state to which the wicked are condemned, and in which they are deprived of the sight of God for all eternity, and are in dreadful torments.

[bonkers]

[b]Q. 1380. Will the damned suffer in both mind and body?[/b]
A. The damned will suffer in both mind and body, because both mind and body had a share in their sins. The mind suffers the "pain of loss" in which it is tortured by the thought of having lost God forever, and the body suffers the "pain of sense" by which it is tortured in all its members and senses.

Edited December 20, 2008 by bonkers

[Apotheoun]

That is a nice quotation, but you have not given any exposition.

[bonkers]

From the original catechism;
1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.[612] Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"[613] and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"[614]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."[615] The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1731186' date='Dec 18 2008, 10:08 AM']The whole of their philosophies.

Read "The Cave." Not the novel by Saramago, but the essay by Plato. The Good is a basic concept in phliosophy, and you can't argue against it succesfully unless you reject the notion of Truth. If you did, then you wouldn't be arguing in the first place.[/quote]


I have not rejected Platonism, but I don't know how sound the cave analogy is or how far you could get with this. Plato's conflation of goodness and truth it a bit difficult to maintain for a number of reasons. To begain with Plato's transcendental Truth is more than simply "truth" in the sense of a correct description of observable phenomena or scientific methodology and rejecting Truth is not the same as rejection of truth. Nietzsche rejected "Truth" for his perspectivism, but I don't think he would say he was incorrect.

Secondly Plato's particular metaphysics of presence is difficult to maintain in light of the closed physical system usually maintained by naturalism science. I'm not advocating scientific reductionism per se but it certianly raises challenges.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732397' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:11 PM']From the original catechism;
1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.[612] Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"[613] and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"[614]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."[615] The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.[/quote]
It would be helpful if you would give some exposition instead of simply posting quotations.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732403' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:14 AM']It would be helpful if you would give some exposition instead of simply posting quotations.[/quote]

You mean the Catholic Church sells these things without providing expositions?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732405' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:17 PM']You mean the Catholic Church sells these things without providing expositions?[/quote]
I mean that in a debate your have to state your case. Simply quoting a text is not an argument.

[Hassan]

I don't know. The early Muslim theologians had a lot of debates about this. Ash'ari ended up breaking from the Mu'Tazilies over something reguarding this.

Perhapse In šāʾ Allāh is the best explination.

I ono

[bonkers]

I've already stated it. It was a reponse to mortify's quotation.

Requires no further "exposition".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732407' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:20 PM']I don't know. The early Muslim theologians had a lot of debates about this. Ash'ari ended up breaking from the Mu'Tazilies over something reguarding this.

Perhapse In šāʾ Allāh is the best explination.

I ono [/quote]
Perhaps in Islamic theology, but you cannot simply apply the principles of a particular Islamic school to Christian theology.

The fact that Ibn Hanbal believed that Allah had a literal heavenly pen with which he wrote in the preserved tablet does not mean that I as a Christian believe that there is a literal "furnace" in hell.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732410' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:22 PM']I've already stated it. It was a reponse to mortify's quotation.

Requires no further "exposition".[/quote]
Simply posting a quotation in response to another person's quotation shows only that you and he both know how to quote a text.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732411' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:23 AM']Perhaps in Islamic theology, but you cannot simply apply the principles of a particular Islamic school to Christian theology.

The fact that Ibn Hanbal believed that Allah had a literal heavenly pen with which he wrote in the preserved tablet does not mean that I as a Christian believe that there is a literal "furnace" in hell.[/quote]

That's not particular to any one school, "if God wills it". God sends to hell who he wishes and gives paradise to those he wishes. Makes about as much sense as anything else.

Ibn Hanbal's explination of the anthromorphic statments in the Qur'an was more Bila kayfa "without asking how". That also has connections with the Mu'tazilis but with a different matter.

[bonkers]

Of course, it's not just quoting text, the "exposition" is implied. I'm sure mortify can figure it out.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732417' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:29 PM']That's not particular to any one school, "if God wills it". God sends to hell who he wishes and gives paradise to those he wishes. Makes about as much sense as anything else.[/quote]
What does this have to do with anything I have said in this thread recently?

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732417' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:29 PM']Ibn Hanbal's explination (sic) of the anthromorphic (sic) statments in the Qur'an was more Bila kayfa "without asking how". That also has connections with the Mu'tazilis but with a different matter.[/quote]
There is a great gulf between Islamic theology and Christian theology; thus, I do not see any point in bringing up what Muslims believe about hell, since Christians (both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox) and Muslims approach their sacred texts differently.