Luthien Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 I didnt MEAN to meet my spouse online. Honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustine of Hippo Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 My complaint initially with the website was the features of the site and my concern that the actual number of users who used the website was much less than claimed and that the general format of the site was not to my liking. The claim about Ave Maria Singles website was that it was not just another dating website and was billed as more of a place where Catholics could converse online with others of like minds. The truth was, that Ave Maria Singles is just another singles website with no sense or decorum of being Catholic. The number of people that actually posted in the Ave Maria forum, was probably less than 40. I regularly converse with more than 40 other pro-lifers online and have hundreads of online contacts in the Christian pro-life movement. The number of site users that actually were available for contacting was less than 1/4 the number of advertised users. I wasn't unhappy with the site because I didn't meet someone. I was unhappy because there was virtually no one to meet on the site. Imagine buying a luxuriously priced ticket to what is billed as a party of like minded people of similiar faith and interest and upon entering the room, find only a handful of people. Wouldn't you be disappointed? When I got banned from the site I laughed aloud. I regularly offend more pro-abortion proponents online in a week than I ever offended Catholics on Ave Maria Singles. It's all really a non-issue, but for the fact that the site is still in business and that other people might get invloved and be as disappointed in this site as I was. I am quite capable of talking to people in real life. Sure, I am choosy about who I would marry. Aren't we all? And actually I am a rather quiet person inclined to put up with quite a lot. As for the people on that site, some were very nice Catholics. Many however I think are not less than perfect Catholics, but rather less than Catholic people. In three days, I have already communicated with more people on this website than I did in 9 months on Ave Maria Singles. Were there some nice people on the site? Yes. Can I think of a single reason to defend the site or it's owner? Not one reason. You can meet more Catholic people randomly for free on the internet than you will ever meet on Ave Maria Singles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 [quote name='Augustine of Hippo' post='1738505' date='Dec 29 2008, 11:14 PM']My complaint initially with the website was the features of the site[/quote] If you feel something is lacking then I would recommend it politely to the creators of AMS in a charitable and loving way from the very beginning. From what I understand the website has been improving over the years and I know they will be continuing to do so. [quote]and my concern that the actual number of users who used the website was much less than claimed[/quote] First of all, the major purpose of the website is to correspond with potential future spouses, anything else is secondary and definitely not mandatory. Second, there is no one to blame on the level of participation and the amount of time each person puts into the website because it is under absolutely no one's control but that sole person. AMS does not guarantee people online 24/7 to chat with 365 days of the year but they do deliver giving you a pool of potential candidates for marriage. Lots of people on there have full-time jobs and are very active in numerous organizations in their parish but its up to you (especially as the male in my opinion) to do that extra step if you want something started. [quote]and that the general format of the site was not to my liking.[/quote] Really that's personal preference and opinion and that's okay. But everybody knows you take that risk when you register because every site is different, unique and has the pros and cons. I really wish you would bring something to the table because all this down talking is going to go nowhere fast. But really by the above statement, it has nothing to do with AMS overall but one single person's opinion about it. I see no site ever claiming they will be able to please everybody. [quote]The claim about Ave Maria Singles website was that it was not just another dating website and was billed as more of a place where Catholics could converse online with others of like minds.[/quote] Well I have to disagree. 1.) It is true about not being just another dating website. It is a website with a purpose...the sacrament of marriage. Every other dating site is really unrealistic because of certain lifestyles and beliefs. 2.) We are all adults and professionals and not everyone has time to be talking on a forum making conversations. Or those that do might just lurk and not have anything to contribute to the forum so it could very well be more than 40. But again this is additional and not the main place of action. You press that contact button at any time for no charge any day! If the forum was that important to me I would encourage more participation with a friendly email (maybe some people don't know about it?) and being pro-active instead of not doing anything about it. I'm sure the majority would be unable to because of time but at least you tried right? 3.) Anthony is constantly putting on retreats, pilgrimages, classes and cruises just for Catholic singles. I don't know about you but I don't see other websites doing that. And all these events are Catholic centered, i.e. Theology of the Body, vocation talks, religious priests involvement, etc.. [quote]The truth was, that Ave Maria Singles is just another singles website with no sense or decorum of being Catholic. The number of people that actually posted in the Ave Maria forum, was probably less than 40.[/quote] Again, points made in my prior responses addresses that they are very much Catholic. This is most obvious in their reading material and articles which are very faithful to the Church and the members being made to be very specific in major issues that no one else addresses but are very important to the sacrament of matrimony. Again, the number of people posting in a subforums should in no way undermine the pool of Catholic men and women you have direct contact with through email everytime you log in. [quote]I regularly converse with more than 40 other pro-lifers online and have hundreads of online contacts in the Christian pro-life movement.[/quote] Well if you have many other contacts then having AMS not work for you should be a blessing in disguise that its not meant to be. Anything is possible with God! . At least you can move on and know that you tried it for yourself and it didn't work out. Is it a sin to disagree or not like something such as a dating site? Nope. [quote]The number of site users that actually were available for contacting was less than 1/4 the number of advertised users.[/quote] Really you don't know because from what I understand you have a choice to put your profile on visible or unvisible for anytime and reason and for however long you want. With many people being on there things are bound to change relationship, job and time wise. I'm sure the number is factual but the part where each person decides when and if they are available to you is up to them. [quote]I wasn't unhappy with the site because I didn't meet someone. I was unhappy because there was virtually no one to meet on the site. Imagine buying a luxuriously priced ticket to what is billed as a party of like minded people of similiar faith and interest and upon entering the room, find only a handful of people. Wouldn't you be disappointed? When I got banned from the site I laughed aloud. I regularly offend more pro-abortion proponents online in a week than I ever offended Catholics on Ave Maria Singles. It's all really a non-issue, but for the fact that the site is still in business and that other people might get involved and be as disappointed in this site as I was.[/quote] If the main case is that you didn't meet anybody on the site that is understandable but I really fail to see how this is somehow someone's else's [b]fault[/b]. It just didn't work out but I would first recommended being patient and praying instead of giving up or getting fustrated. If you feel that there was no one to meet when you were on it, does not mean there will [i]never[/i] be any one to meet on that website. What if your future spouse signs up months after you or a couple of years later and you are no longer there because you are banned? You will always attract more bees with honey then vinegar. I really do applaud you for doing your part and trying out different avenues to meet your future spouse but I really have to disagree with your position of making sure everyone and their mother knows how awful AMS is of a dating site. Things obviously didn't work out between you and the website as obvious in this "falling out" but you are not making things better by being bitter about it. Sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't and there's nothing we can really do about it. All of us singles have high hopes and want things to work out but it is ultimately in no one's hands but God's in the end. [quote]I am quite capable of talking to people in real life. Sure, I am choosy about who I would marry. Aren't we all? And actually I am a rather quiet person inclined to put up with quite a lot. As for the people on that site, some were very nice Catholics. Many however I think are not less than perfect Catholics, but rather less than Catholic people. In three days, I have already communicated with more people on this website than I did in 9 months on Ave Maria Singles. Were there some nice people on the site? Yes. Can I think of a single reason to defend the site or it's owner? Not one reason. You can meet more Catholic people randomly for free on the internet than you will ever meet on Ave Maria Singles.[/quote] Again, if there are that many revenues already open to you than I you should not be worried and I know you will find someone sooner or later! I just highly encourage you to move on! God bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1738100' date='Dec 29 2008, 07:37 PM']No you guys are both right I'm just horrible at real life Katie[/quote] Do you think it is easy? LOL! No. it is not. I just force myself to do it. I regret passing up opportunities. I still shake in my boots and mess up my words. [quote name='Socrates' post='1738212' date='Dec 29 2008, 08:41 PM']The goal of "online dating" is simply to find people to meet "in real life" - not to spend one's life "hiding behind a computer screen." The website profile, etc. are simply a first step. "Online dating" should never be a substitute for the real deal - merely a means of facilitating actual real-life meetings. And I think the reality is it can be harder to finds eligible Catholic people in today's world. Like everything else, "online dating" has its advantages and disadvantages, and may not be for everybody. (I tended to be skeptical for a long time myself.) It shouldn't be used as a way to avoid meeting people in "real life," but can be one more tool in one's search - one that may or may not prove fruitful. I think some people attach too much undue stigma to meeting people online - I really don't think it's any more shameful than meeting people at bars or clubs (especially if you live in a place where the bar/club scene is less than savory).[/quote] I am not attaching a stigma to anything. I agree with what you say to a point. There are people though that hide behind computer screens and conversate over the computer and then freeze up on the phone or in person. Those are who I am referring too. Yes online dating works for some. Not for me. Not directed at Soc...more to the general phatmass masses...and not the Church kind...more of the groups of people kind: Honestly, I don't care where you meet your women/men. Its your life, you gotta deal with whatever you are doing. Not me. I'll do what I feel is best. It gets frustrating after a while hearing the stories about how people can't meet other people and it is sad and I am single and dating websites don't work and everything else. Call me young. Call me naive. Call me whatever you would like. If you don't like internet dating then don't do it. But don't come on here and tell me that there are no good girls out there...or that there are no good guys out there. There are over 1,000 people on phatmass that refute that. Furthermore, you DO NOT have to be Catholic to be good. You can be anything religion or lack thereof and be "good". If you are looking for Catholic then more power to you. That is great. If internet dating is not working...they are still out there. You might have to rearrange how you are looking and where you are looking but they are out there. So anyways, yeah...off the soap box and back into my corner until later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1738632' date='Dec 30 2008, 07:48 AM']Honestly, I don't care where you meet your women/men. Its your life, you gotta deal with whatever you are doing. Not me. I'll do what I feel is best. It gets frustrating after a while hearing the stories about how people can't meet other people and it is sad and I am single and dating websites don't work and everything else. Call me young. Call me naive. Call me whatever you would like. If you don't like internet dating then don't do it. But don't come on here and tell me that there are no good girls out there...or that there are no good guys out there. There are over 1,000 people on phatmass that refute that. Furthermore, you DO NOT have to be Catholic to be good. You can be anything religion or lack thereof and be "good". If you are looking for Catholic then more power to you. That is great. If internet dating is not working...they are still out there. You might have to rearrange how you are looking and where you are looking but they are out there. So anyways, yeah...off the soap box and back into my corner until later.[/quote] I know what you mean. I'm really glad my husband didn't have "Catholic girl" as his criteria for dating, because we never would have started dating then. I mean, I'm Catholic now (no, I did not convert for him), but I wasn't when we started dating. I realise that skews my views on it, but it can work out if the other party isn't Catholic, and that person might just end up joining the Church, as I did. Or as BG is doing. Oh, and Tinkerlina & Maggie, I understand. I can't say I was ever good at starting conversations with guys I liked, and most guys never saw me as anything other than a friend. With my husband, we started out as friends. Actually, I was good friends with one of his roommates and was over there all the time (I think I spent more time there than at my place ), and so it just went from there. I didn't have to dress provocatively to get his attention (I understand the draw of doing so to get attention - I've been there), but just had to be myself. Cliché, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoTeckam Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 My adivce is to just be patient and open your mind to other possibilities. I am now engaged to a man I used to refer to as "that darn baptist boy in my catholic studies classes that always gets better grades than I do," (you know... because a 98 is insulting when a darn prostestant got a 99, lol).I was at first angered that I was being dethroned as the school's resident Catholic nerd. Out of competition was born a friendship and out of friendship (as well as prayer and debate) he converted to Catholicism. So try not to limit yourself.... God sure doesn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1738865' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:26 PM']My adivce is to just be patient and open your mind to other possibilities. I am now engaged to a man I used to refer to as "that darn baptist boy in my catholic studies classes that always gets better grades than I do," (you know... because a 98 is insulting when a darn prostestant got a 99, lol).I was at first angered that I was being dethroned as the school's resident Catholic nerd. Out of competition was born a friendship and out of friendship (as well as prayer and debate) he converted to Catholicism. So try not to limit yourself.... God sure doesn't![/quote] Ah, always heartened when a Baptist joins the Church (I was Southern Baptist, though perhaps not a very good one ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 [quote name='Socrates' post='1738181' date='Dec 29 2008, 09:17 PM']Seriously, though, what was Mr. Buono supposed to "offer you in return"? Did you want [i]him[/i] to marry you?[/quote] Hey, you guys are leaving out Catholics on the IRC. I met my husband there back in the late 90s and knew each other as friends for a long time over the years while we dated other people offline. We dated after we met in person. I remember when he first logged on. Someone warned me in private that he was "weird." Perfect fit. The internet is just meant to be a starting point. If someone can only hide behind the screen and doesn't have the social skills for face to face interaction, then they aren't prepared for a relationship or marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessgianna Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 [quote name='Luthien' post='1737285' date='Dec 28 2008, 10:12 PM']I married a man I met on this website, hes as hardcore Catholic as it gets. AAAAnd we're havin' a baby. [/quote] congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustine of Hippo Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 The fact is, I did make my misgivings known to the creators and moderators of the site. What I got was a curt response that amounted to "Sorry, all sales are final , but wel'll keep you in our prayers". Any site for whatever purpose it exists is a business venture. I don't feel that I am bashing Catholics or Catholicism by writing about this. First and foremost I am a dissatisfied customer. Normally the first course of action when a customer is dissatisfied is to make some kind of offer of good will. The website is a business, not a vocation. The site itself only peripherally pertains to any vocation. No, the major purpose of the website is to make money, and to that end the proper course of action is to create satisfied customers. If I was a dissatisfied customer, they should have accomodated me. Whether I had given the site a month, 8 months or 8 years I was still an unhappy customer. No, the site cannot grant full participation by the members who subscribe to the site, they can however maintain disclosure as to how many members are in fact active so as not to present an inaccurate picture of member usage. People on this site talk about "down talking". I didn't like a website that presented itself to be "Catholic". I am really interested as to why so many seem to take personal offense at my writing about this subject. Ave Maria Singles is no way sanctioned by the Catholic Church. They can say that the site is dedicated to whomever they will, but that does not make it so. Every website is going to present a good advertising logo and slogan. And they will present as many favorable reviews as possible. I doubt that I am the first dissatisfied customer that Ave Maria Singles has ever had and in fact a good number of users stated that they only frequented the site because of the forum, having since lost an expectation that they would ever meet a potential spouse. Reading material, sited articles, books, retreats and meetings; none of these to me suggest to me any sense of certainty that the website was Christ centered, being Catholic. Perhaps it is my pervading cynicism that the very word "Catholic" is tossed about so carelessly, with no thought or appreciation, that makes me suspicious of all things that claim to be Catholic. My dealings with so-called Catholic in political and moral discussions present me with a contradictory view of Catholics. On the one hand they may readily be able to quote Saints and speak about the Doctrines of the Church. On the other hand however in their personal lives and as participating members of society promote and espouse exactly the wrong moral viewpoints. Examples: pre-marital sex, contraception, pro-choice/abortion, stem cell research, artificial conception. All of this circles around the question; what does it mean to be a Catholic? I think that the one misunderstanding that continues about me in this discussion is how unimportant marriage is to me as a vocation. I am become far to bitter and disillusioned to believe that love is anything other than a romantic and nostalgic notion reserved only for the most idealistic among our number. For most people I think that marriage represents a stumbling block to sane and stable living. I think that I could no longer expect that any person could satisfy any need I have for companionship than I could realistically long to go to the moon and back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthien Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 [quote name='Augustine of Hippo' post='1739145' date='Dec 30 2008, 10:06 PM']The fact is, I did make my misgivings known to the creators and moderators of the site. What I got was a curt response that amounted to "Sorry, all sales are final , but wel'll keep you in our prayers". Any site for whatever purpose it exists is a business venture. I don't feel that I am bashing Catholics or Catholicism by writing about this. First and foremost I am a dissatisfied customer. Normally the first course of action when a customer is dissatisfied is to make some kind of offer of good will. The website is a business, not a vocation. The site itself only peripherally pertains to any vocation. No, the major purpose of the website is to make money, and to that end the proper course of action is to create satisfied customers. If I was a dissatisfied customer, they should have accomodated me. Whether I had given the site a month, 8 months or 8 years I was still an unhappy customer. No, the site cannot grant full participation by the members who subscribe to the site, they can however maintain disclosure as to how many members are in fact active so as not to present an inaccurate picture of member usage. People on this site talk about "down talking". I didn't like a website that presented itself to be "Catholic". I am really interested as to why so many seem to take personal offense at my writing about this subject. Ave Maria Singles is no way sanctioned by the Catholic Church. They can say that the site is dedicated to whomever they will, but that does not make it so. Every website is going to present a good advertising logo and slogan. And they will present as many favorable reviews as possible. I doubt that I am the first dissatisfied customer that Ave Maria Singles has ever had and in fact a good number of users stated that they only frequented the site because of the forum, having since lost an expectation that they would ever meet a potential spouse. Reading material, sited articles, books, retreats and meetings; none of these to me suggest to me any sense of certainty that the website was Christ centered, being Catholic. Perhaps it is my pervading cynicism that the very word "Catholic" is tossed about so carelessly, with no thought or appreciation, that makes me suspicious of all things that claim to be Catholic. My dealings with so-called Catholic in political and moral discussions present me with a contradictory view of Catholics. On the one hand they may readily be able to quote Saints and speak about the Doctrines of the Church. On the other hand however in their personal lives and as participating members of society promote and espouse exactly the wrong moral viewpoints. Examples: pre-marital sex, contraception, pro-choice/abortion, stem cell research, artificial conception. All of this circles around the question; what does it mean to be a Catholic? I think that the one misunderstanding that continues about me in this discussion is how unimportant marriage is to me as a vocation. I am become far to bitter and disillusioned to believe that love is anything other than a romantic and nostalgic notion reserved only for the most idealistic among our number. For most people I think that marriage represents a stumbling block to sane and stable living. I think that I could no longer expect that any person could satisfy any need I have for companionship than I could realistically long to go to the moon and back.[/quote] I think the biggest problem here is that you sir, have a major grudge. Im sorry that love seems to be nothing more than "romantic and nostalgic," (Thanks a bunch for reducing marriage to fluff, awesome dude.) I also think that this bashing of AMS is old. Real old. No offense, but we get it, you hate the site. Is it now your mission to assure that everyone here hates the site too? Seriously. Next time you sign up for something, read the fine print, it probably told ya you would not get a refund. How the heck else is the man suppose to run a business? Just because they're Catholic doesn't mean they're a charity. And if you are bitter because you have not yet met someone, welcome to the human race! I STUMBLED upon my husband, I was on this site for almost 2 years before we started talking. Your point must keep being lost, because you keep saying the same things over and over again and no one seems to grasp what you are saying. Im sorry if this post seems harsh, but this whole thread is majorly frustrating. I blame pregnancy horomones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 [quote name='Luthien' post='1739155' date='Dec 30 2008, 08:44 PM']but this whole thread is majorly frustrating. I blame pregnancy horomones. [/quote] What can I blame then? (definitely NOT that... lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthien Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 [quote name='missionseeker' post='1739230' date='Dec 31 2008, 01:33 AM']What can I blame then? (definitely NOT that... lol) [/quote] Carnies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 [quote name='Augustine of Hippo' post='1738505' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:14 AM']My complaint initially with the website was the features of the site and my concern that the actual number of users who used the website was much less than claimed and that the general format of the site was not to my liking. The claim about Ave Maria Singles website was that it was not just another dating website and was billed as more of a place where Catholics could converse online with others of like minds. The truth was, that Ave Maria Singles is just another singles website with no sense or decorum of being Catholic. The number of people that actually posted in the Ave Maria forum, was probably less than 40. I regularly converse with more than 40 other pro-lifers online and have hundreads of online contacts in the Christian pro-life movement. The number of site users that actually were available for contacting was less than 1/4 the number of advertised users. I wasn't unhappy with the site because I didn't meet someone. I was unhappy because there was virtually no one to meet on the site. Imagine buying a luxuriously priced ticket to what is billed as a party of like minded people of similiar faith and interest and upon entering the room, find only a handful of people. Wouldn't you be disappointed?[/quote] Ok, you don't like the AMS site. We get that, and that's fine. However, much of what you are claiming here is completely nonsensical, coming from someone who's been a long-term member. And it's one thing to say that features and "the general format of the site" were not to your liking, and quite another to claim the site is "not at all Catholic" and "not at all Christian," as you have done. First of all, what do mean by "no sense or decorum of being Catholic"? The emphasis of the entire site is very Catholic, from the profile questions to fill out to the blogs, articles, and sponsored retreats. All are from a strongly orthodox Catholic perspective, and I have seen no articles, books, podcasts, etc. promoted on the site which have anything heretical. I may not agree with Anthony Buono's opinions on everything, but I have yet to see him say or promote anything at all contrary to the Catholic Faith. To make such a claim, as you have done repeatedly, is slander - a mortal sin. As for the numbers deal, I know for a fact that when I was active there were thousands of women in my age range who agreed with Church and eligible for Catholic marriage with active profiles in the U.S. I wouldn't be interested in marrying all of them, but claiming there's "no one on there" is just ludicrous. Seriously, how many women do need to contact? Personally, I would never have time to contact the vast majority of the women on there with active profiles. The message boards and chat features are actually very new additions to the site, and will probably take some time to "get moving." Just because people aren't using them, doesn't mean they're not available for contact. I almost never used them myself. Again, the site's primarily for one-on-one contacts, not message boards. [quote]When I got banned from the site I laughed aloud. I regularly offend more pro-abortion proponents online in a week than I ever offended Catholics on Ave Maria Singles. It's all really a non-issue, but for the fact that the site is still in business and that other people might get invloved and be as disappointed in this site as I was.[/quote] If it's all so laughable and a non-issue, and you moved on, why are you still railing against the site so much on here? Being upset that "the site is still in business" sounds like a personal grudge, and hardly shows a spirit of Christian charity. I'm sure your not the first nor the last to be disappointed, but that's true of many services. While your experiences may not have been good, what of those people who have found their spouse on that site, and are happily married? Are their experiences somehow less valid than yours? Sorry, but all I'm seeing is whining and sour grapes. [quote]I am quite capable of talking to people in real life. Sure, I am choosy about who I would marry. Aren't we all? And actually I am a rather quiet person inclined to put up with quite a lot. As for the people on that site, some were very nice Catholics. Many however I think are not less than perfect Catholics, but rather less than Catholic people. In three days, I have already communicated with more people on this website than I did in 9 months on Ave Maria Singles. Were there some nice people on the site? Yes. Can I think of a single reason to defend the site or it's owner? Not one reason. You can meet more Catholic people randomly for free on the internet than you will ever meet on Ave Maria Singles.[/quote] I'm a less than Catholic person. And so are you. Welcome to reality. You can blame a website or its owner that all of its paid members are not saints. The difference is that AMS members are all single Catholics actively seeking spouses. There have been well over a thousand marriages on that site, and I know for a fact I found a good woman on that site a lot quicker than it would take me randomly meeting people on the internet. If you don't like AMS, fine. But I can't think of a single reason, not one reason, to be slandering Mr. Buono and his site as "not at all Catholic, not at all Christian." That's a serious charge, and should not be tossed around lightly. To do so is slander, and is NOT Catholic nor Christian, but a serious sin which needs to be repented of. Move on, and desist. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 I hate to admit this publicly, but I agree with Socrates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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