U S Healthcare Needs Fixed!

[Apotheoun]

Hassan,

We will never agree on this issue, because I am a Catholic and you are not. The Catholic Church has declared euthanasia (like abortion), as a means or as an end, to be immoral. Thus, the intention of the agent cannot make moral that which is by its very nature immoral.

God bless,
Todd

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1742036' date='Jan 3 2009, 03:33 PM']Just wanted to share this heads-up with you all. Between the Nationalization of the auto industry, and the so-called "Fairness Doctrine," the implementation of a huge domestic military to police you and me[url="http://loungedaddy.us/?p=1373"]...and also the possibility of the Nationalization of the newspapers in the United States...[/url] 2009 could be an interesting year in the re-defining of what America is all about.

The original Reuters article is [url="http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSTRE4BU53T20081231?sp=true"]HERE[/url].[/quote]

That is seriously scary. Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1742326' date='Jan 3 2009, 07:08 PM']I have lived with gold card insurance, hmo, no insurance, and now national insurance. My ideas about insurance/health care were brought home when I stopped at my first 7-11 in Canada to buy a pop. When the clerk handed me my change, I stood there looking back and forth for the milk carton or pickle jar. There wasn't one. The clerk looked at me very strangely. When was the last time you were in a convenience store in the US where there wasn't a collection for a child sick with cancer, or someone needing a transplant? When a child becomes sick here, their parents can actually worry about helping their child get better rather than worrying about losing their house or their job.[/quote]
How sad, evidently in Canada government has replaced the virtue of charity.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742330' date='Jan 3 2009, 10:10 PM']How sad, evidently in Canada government has replaced the virtue of charity.[/quote]

What in the world is your problem?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742330' date='Jan 3 2009, 10:10 PM']How sad, evidently in Canada government has replaced the virtue of charity.[/quote]
Catherine do you think there is no charity in Canada?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1742337' date='Jan 3 2009, 07:14 PM']What in the world is your problem?[/quote]
I find it lamentable when government intrudes into areas that are not part of its proper mission. The State is not society and it must not replace the proper functions of persons (and groups) within society. The Catholic Church has always opposed paternalistic government.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742327' date='Jan 3 2009, 10:09 PM']Hassan,

We will never agree on this issue, because I am a Catholic and you are not. The Catholic Church has declared euthanasia (like abortion), as a means or as an end, to be immoral. Thus, the intention of the agent cannot make moral that which is by its very nature immoral.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

I never said it did make it moral. I said Euthanasia was a "mercy killing". The question of whether it [i]is[/i] merciful or not is irrelevant, what matters for the criteria to be met, for the act in question to be euthanasia, is the agents intent.

God bless you too and all the best to your mother.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1742343' date='Jan 3 2009, 07:18 PM']I never said it did make it moral. I said Euthanasia was a "mercy killing".[/quote]
And I pointed out that there is no such things as "mercy killing" and that the term is a euphemism for murder or suicide.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1742343' date='Jan 3 2009, 07:18 PM']God bless you too and all the best to your mother.[/quote]
May almighty God, the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit, bless you and your family.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742345' date='Jan 3 2009, 10:20 PM']And I point out that there is no such things as "mercy killing" and that the term is a euphemism for murder or suicide.[/quote]

That does not remove the fact that the agents intent was to end the life for the purpose of mercy. The definition of euthanasia is not contingent on it [i]actually[/i] being a merciful act but only that the agent in question intends it to be “merciful”.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742349' date='Jan 3 2009, 10:22 PM']May almighty God, the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit, bless you and your family.[/quote]


thank you very much

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1742354' date='Jan 3 2009, 07:25 PM']That does not remove the fact that the agents intent was to end the life for the purpose of mercy. The definition of euthanasia is not contingent on it [i]actually[/i] being a merciful act but only that the agent in question intends it to be “merciful”.[/quote]
Morality is not determined solely by the agent's intention. In fact, a good intention cannot make that which is intrinsically immoral moral, but a bad intention can vitiate the morality of an act which is objectively good.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742356' date='Jan 3 2009, 10:28 PM']Morality is not determined solely by the agent's intention. In fact, a good intention cannot make that which is intrinsically immoral moral, but a bad intention can vitiate the morality of an act which is objectively good.[/quote]


"rage killing", "mercy killing", "sadistic killing" these are not moral judgments about the act in question, they are a qualification of the type of killing in question based on the agent’s intent(except to the extent, if any, that the agent's intent factors into the moral calculus).

Edited January 4, 2009 by Hassan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1742358' date='Jan 3 2009, 07:32 PM']"rage killing", "mercy killing", "sadistic killing" these are not moral judgments about the act in question, they are a qualification of the type of killing in question based on the agent’s intent(except to the extent, if any, that the agent's intent factors into the moral calculus).[/quote]
The agent's intent does not determine the morality of an action. His intention can at most vitiate the goodness of a moral act, but it cannot make that which is by its nature evil into something good.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1742340' date='Jan 3 2009, 08:15 PM']Catherine do you think there is no charity in Canada?[/quote]

There is lots here. Catholic Charities is literally a block away. When we were required to have additional marital counseling, they provided it for us free of charge. Their food bank sends over a turkey and a couple of hampers of food every holiday because they know we cook for schizophrenics with no where else to go. People here seem to genuinely care for the less fortunate. We had a woman ask us not long ago to help her identify every place in the neighborhood where the homeless live. She wanted to make sure when the bad weather came that she could go and check on them. I saw her today doing just that.

In the US when I was injured, and nearly homeless, Catholic Charities offered me two days in a prostitute's hotel. I was grateful since I could not move at the time. They didn't have the funding for more than 48 hours. I didn't move for 7 weeks. I had no where to go, and only a disabled friend to take care of me. The manager of the hotel allowed me to stay, because he didn't know what else to do. He was afraid if he tried to evict me, that he would have to roll me out of the bed, and drag me outside on the sheets. Not exactly good for business. I was eventually able to pay him in full for his kindness. My friend called every social service agency, and charity in town, and was turned away at every one. This was a relatively wealthy town with a booming economy.

[Apotheoun]

Catherine,

Perhaps you shouldn't have given the example you gave, because it left the impression that people simply expect the government to take care of ill children.

[add]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1742321' date='Jan 3 2009, 10:02 PM']As long as you can afford to pay for it...[/quote]

I just don’t think things are that bad or as the saying goes “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water”, that’s all

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='apparently' post='1742366' date='Jan 3 2009, 07:43 PM']I just don’t think things are that bad or as the saying goes “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water”, that’s all[/quote]
I agree. Federalization of the health care system would lead to an inordinate increase in government bureaucracy, while also being contrary to the principle of subsidiarity.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='apparently' post='1742366' date='Jan 3 2009, 10:43 PM']I just don’t think things are that bad or as the saying goes “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water”, that’s all[/quote]
Really? Did you read the examples I gave? Do you think people should have to declare bankruptcy, or spend many years paying bills or have to choose between medicine and food????

[Apotheoun]

I guess we grew up in different cultures. My parents and grandparents never accepted assistance from the government, and only sought out help from the Church if they really could not find any other way to help themselves. They never expected others to pay their way in life, and that is how I was raised. I have gone through very hard times in my life, but I always worked my way through them, and on occasion received help from my family, that is, when they had the ability to help. Perhaps this is not a good way to live in your view, but I respect my parents, grandparents, and siblings, who have always supported themselves through good times and bad.