kafka Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1747930' date='Jan 10 2009, 12:12 AM']Is this a riddle of some kind?[/quote] no. Alright just give me a few moments or minutes.
jckinsman Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1747933' date='Jan 10 2009, 12:13 AM']Personally, I'm wondering what happens after we've established "the three things."[/quote] You know............GAME OVER
kafka Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 alright fellows, I was responding to another thread. Continue your countdown I still need that quote from the Catechism Miss "HisChildForever" wants.
HisChildForever Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1748016' date='Jan 10 2009, 01:17 AM']alright fellows, I was responding to another thread. Continue your countdown I still need that quote from the Catechism Miss "HisChildForever" wants.[/quote] My name is Erin.
kafka Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) 1. Concupiscence (a remnant of original sin) 2. Sinful Society and other sinners 3. Tempations of fallen angels. Now I have noticed among us Catholics, we tend to place an over-emphasis on the temptations of fallen angels. The truth is God only permits the fallen angels to tempt us on occasion. If God allowed them free reign they would surely overcome us, because angelic nature is more powerful than human nature. Yet this is not the case, Christ is King. Fallen angels are trapped in Time and Place. Some are in Hell and some roam the Earth as a punishment for their mortal sin. God permits them to tempt us for His own glory (too lazy to post Scripture quotes at this point). Generally the more sinful a person or a society is, the more God in His Justice permits fallen angels to tempt them, and have an influence over that particular part of the world (including weather and crops) and other aspects of nature, even human nature itself. The real problem lies in the first two influences toward sin, namely concupiscence: desire of the lower appetite (flesh) contrary to reason., and sinful society (known in spiritual writings as the world). flesh, world, fallen angels: in that order: The progression is logical. Concupiscence is the proximate influence toward sin, since they reside within our very beings. We are always with our bodies and passions. 24/7 Sinful society (the world) and other sinners are a more remote influence since we arent always with them. Fallen Angels are even more remote since we cannot see or sense them and God only permits them to tempt us only on occasion. I'm sure I have more to say but it is getting late. Edited January 10, 2009 by kafka
sweens8403 Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 I've never quite been able to get a handle on how time affects angelic beings. How are beings outside our linear timeline (aka in eternity) able to interact with us? I know that they do, but I don't understand the mechanics by which they pull it off.
Winchester Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 [quote name='sweens8403' post='1748164' date='Jan 10 2009, 12:13 PM']I've never quite been able to get a handle on how time affects angelic beings. How are beings outside our linear timeline (aka in eternity) able to interact with us? I know that they do, but I don't understand the mechanics by which they pull it off.[/quote] Angels being creatures, must act, therefore, they must exist within time.
sweens8403 Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 yes, however they do not have the option of repentance like we do. When any of us makes a bad decision we always have the option to change our mind as long as we're alive but angels and demons do not. How does that fit in with all this?
MithLuin Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 We are as eternal as angels (which is to say, neither we nor they are truly eternal). Our souls will never end, but we have a beginning (the moment of our conception). An angel (or demon) will never end, but they also have a beginning (their creation). So, I don't know if that will help, but if we can operate in time, so can angels. The main difference between them and us is that they are purely spiritual beings while we are embodied spirits. Which gets back to this list of three. Concupiscience doesn't mean that our bodies are evil. Angels fell without them (at least, some did anyway). It is true, though, that original sin means that our wills and our tendencies are not aligned with God - we have all sorts of messed up ideas that pull us in the wrong direction. The Seven Deadly Sins fall into this category, so I think everyone was on track with naming them. Pride should always be named first, becasue it leads to all the others. But Envy is a much closer second than Lust or Anger/Wrath. Which one is worst generally gets back to which one we struggle with the most. Sloth is near the top of my list, but many other people don't find themselves to be as lazy as I am . I don't think anyone mentioned temptations of the devil, and put only a little emphasis on other people; most of us look to ourselves as the root of the problem, though we do recognize that the company we keep can influence us for good or ill, and that temptation is very real (regardless of its source).
Winchester Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 [quote name='sweens8403' post='1748169' date='Jan 10 2009, 12:31 PM']yes, however they do not have the option of repentance like we do. When any of us makes a bad decision we always have the option to change our mind as long as we're alive but angels and demons do not. How does that fit in with all this?[/quote] Their moment of choosing is past, that's why they "cannot" change their minds.
KnightofChrist Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Angels where given the choice at the moment of the creation to be submissive to the will of God or to reject God. One great reason they do not 'change' their mind is because they see the full result of the choice made. They can not claim to not know the end result. No one could say "forgive them they know not what they do", They fully know the end action of all choices they make. Example when Satan choose to rebel from God, he new exactly to the fullest of what the end result would be, Christ defeating him, yet Satan still chose to rebel. Hope I'm making since.
Winchester Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1748176' date='Jan 10 2009, 12:56 PM']Hope I'm making since.[/quote] Since what?
sweens8403 Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 yes you are making sense, but I think I've sidetracked the topic. perhaps the topic of angels & demons and their relationship with linear time is a topic for a different forum. mah b
picchick Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1748095' date='Jan 10 2009, 02:50 AM']1. Concupiscence (a remnant of original sin) 2. Sinful Society and other sinners 3. Tempations of fallen angels. Now I have noticed among us Catholics, we tend to place an over-emphasis on the temptations of fallen angels. The truth is God only permits the fallen angels to tempt us on occasion. If God allowed them free reign they would surely overcome us, because angelic nature is more powerful than human nature. Yet this is not the case, Christ is King. Fallen angels are trapped in Time and Place. Some are in Hell and some roam the Earth as a punishment for their mortal sin. God permits them to tempt us for His own glory (too lazy to post Scripture quotes at this point). Generally the more sinful a person or a society is, the more God in His Justice permits fallen angels to tempt them, and have an influence over that particular part of the world (including weather and crops) and other aspects of nature, even human nature itself. The real problem lies in the first two influences toward sin, namely concupiscence: desire of the lower appetite (flesh) contrary to reason., and sinful society (known in spiritual writings as the world). flesh, world, fallen angels: in that order: The progression is logical. Concupiscence is the proximate influence toward sin, since they reside within our very beings. We are always with our bodies and passions. 24/7 Sinful society (the world) and other sinners are a more remote influence since we arent always with them. Fallen Angels are even more remote since we cannot see or sense them and God only permits them to tempt us only on occasion. I'm sure I have more to say but it is getting late.[/quote] Where is this in the CCC? Please reference your source. You mentioned at the beginning of the thread that it is indeed in the CCC.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1748176' date='Jan 10 2009, 11:56 AM']Angels where given the choice at the moment of the creation to be submissive to the will of God or to reject God. One great reason they do not 'change' their mind is because they see the full result of the choice made. They can not claim to not know the end result. No one could say "forgive them they know not what they do", They fully know the end action of all choices they make. Example when Satan choose to rebel from God, he new exactly to the fullest of what the end result would be, Christ defeating him, yet Satan still chose to rebel. Hope I'm making since.[/quote] I understand in theory what you're saying, but that leads to an obvious question which is out of my league: what is our reasoning as to *why* Satan chose to rebel even with the full knowledge of his eventual defeat, since angels are rational creatures?
kafka Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1748299' date='Jan 10 2009, 06:05 PM']Where is this in the CCC? Please reference your source. You mentioned at the beginning of the thread that it is indeed in the CCC.[/quote] 405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle. 407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil".298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals. 408 The consequences of original sin and of all men's personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John's expression, "the sin of the world".300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men's sins.301 The three influences toward sin are commonly know by Catholics as the the world-flesh-devil. I posted the the teaching in my own unique way.
picchick Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Thank you. I think that a great hinderance of human nature is selfishness. The minute we become selfless and not selfish, we become a whole lot better. We begin to fall less into sin becase we are not thinking of ourselves. Think of the sins of the world. What do they lead back to? ME. I am envious...I am thinking of me. I am violent...I am thinking of the wrongs done to me.
Guest Struggling Ordinary Posted January 20, 2009 Posted January 20, 2009 Pride Vanity Sensuality/comfort seeking
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