Internet Pirating, Intellectual Property, And Restitution

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1749684' date='Jan 12 2009, 05:33 PM']I would own it just as much as one could own a physical $100 bill. If I work for the money the money is mine and if the money is stolen from me I can report to the police that it was stolen. If they find it, it is very likely they would return the $100 dollars back to me, not the Federal Government.[/quote]

You own the purchasing power of the $100, but not the bill itself.

If the police were to return you 5 $20s instead of the $100, your stolen property is restored, yet the physical $100 is gone.

The government owns the paper, so you can't copy the paper.

I guess, theoretically, you could try to copy the purchasing power - not sure how?

[KnightofChrist]

I would agree that in some degree that the digital 100 dollar bill would belong to the Federal Government. But that money would also belong to me. The point of the argument is that I could share, give it to a friend but I could not copy it and give the copy to a friend.

intellectual property I believe works on a very similar level, I buy a CD the CD belongs to me but the intellectual property on the CD belongs to the artist. I can share that CD with a friend but should I as a Christian copy that CD to a 100 or a 1,000 of my 'friends'?

Edited January 12, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749689' date='Jan 12 2009, 06:42 PM']You own the purchasing power of the $100, but not the bill itself.

If the police were to return you 5 $20s instead of the $100, your stolen property is restored, yet the physical $100 is gone.

The government owns the paper, so you can't copy the paper.

I guess, theoretically, you could try to copy the purchasing power - not sure how?[/quote]

I was speaking of electronic money digital money, paper money was a side note.

Edited January 12, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1749690' date='Jan 12 2009, 05:42 PM']I would agree that in some degree that the 100 dollar bill would belong to the Federal Government. But that money would also belong to me. The point of the argument is that I could share, give it to a friend but I could not copy it and give the copy to a friend.

intellectual property I believe works on a very similar level, I buy a CD the CD belongs to me but the intellectual property on the CD belongs to the artist. I can share that CD with a friend but should I as a Christian copy that CD to a 100 or a 1,000 of my 'friends'?[/quote]

Yea this seems to make more sense. You're not buying the intellectual property itself. Just as others have said, your buying a license to the property.

The $100 is interesting stuff, and if your talking electronic banking, I guess you would say the value is yours but the bank account is the banks. You can't copy the account.

Part of this is interesting to think about, but there is also the smell test - and this definitely smells like stealing.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749695' date='Jan 12 2009, 06:53 PM']Yea this seems to make more sense. You're not buying the intellectual property itself. Just as others have said, your buying a license to the property.

The $100 is interesting stuff, and if your talking electronic banking, I guess you would say the value is yours but the bank account is the banks. You can't copy the account.

Part of this is interesting to think about, but there is also the smell test - and this definitely smells like stealing.[/quote]

I think it is stealing. It is surely not 'sharing' it is copying. And to the point of bank accounts my next point would be, can someone if it where possible take 50 dollars in his/her account copy it digitally and share it on a P2P network with millions of other people to upload to their banking accounts? I think the answer is clear, that would be stealing, and the people who 'share' thieves.

Edited January 12, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[philothea]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749670' date='Jan 12 2009, 05:24 PM']Well I used to say pretty much 100% its stealing. In fact I confessed it once, then proceeded to delete all my downloaded songs. But Zigg has brought up a good argument...

Say if I buy a loaf of bread and decide to cut it in half and give half to someone else. Stealing? Of course not.

What if I buy a board game and play it with my family? Stealing - no.

What if I buy a DVD and my whole family and friends sit around and watch it? Or if I loan it? Not stealing.

What if I back up a CD - still not stealing.

And if it truly is my property, why can't I do as I please with it?

Is photocopying an article in a magazine stealing also?

What if I bought a copy of the magazine and then went to the publisher and stole another copy and gave it to a friend? That of course is stealing, but the sin is when I take the item - when I 'copy' the item. But if I buy the item, then copy it myself, have I really stolen something?

Open for more thoughts on this...[/quote]
Because that's not how copyright works. The laws are plenty explicit. The owner of a created work owns all rights to that work and its distribution, until and unless they chose to sell it. You [i]can[/i] purchase the rights to distribute someone else's work, and it's generally a lot more expensive than buying one copy for personal use.

Now, the modern-day system of copyright may be flawed, stupid, self-defeating, and impossible to enforce, but those are still the terms offered, and there's nothing immoral about [i]not[/i] sharing that content, or [i]not[/i] getting illegitimate copies, so there's no reason to break that law.

The content creators and artists are, for the most part, fully capable of sharing it with you for free if that's their desire. If they were giving the stuff away, you'd know.

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1749699' date='Jan 12 2009, 05:57 PM']I think it is stealing. It is surely not 'sharing' it is copying. And to the point of bank accounts my next point would be, can someone if it where possible take 50 dollars in his/her account copy it digitally and share it on a P2P network with millions of other people to upload to their banking accounts? I think the answer is clear, that would be stealing, and the people who 'share' thieves.[/quote]

Not without paying income tax

That gets tricky again though. I mean thats basically creating something out of nothing.

If you could take the piece of bread and put it in a machine that duplicated it - if you give it away is this stealing? You own the bread 100%. Or what if I type something up, print it, then copy it? No theft here because it was mine all along.

Same with the money in the bank account, maybe? You own the $100. If it were possible to duplicate it, is this wrong? This is where I brought in the physical $100 bill. The crime there is not in creating $100 of purchasing power, its duplicating the bill thats not yours.

This is getting into the hypothetical realm of duplicating items.

I think it is clear with CDs and other IP you do not actually own the IP and so copying it would be stealing it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749709' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:07 PM']Not without paying income tax

That gets tricky again though. I mean thats basically creating something out of nothing.[/quote]

No, not really nothing, digital money is real. It exist digitally it has the same worth as paper money. If I'm paid by Wally Word and they pay me by direct deposit into my Checking Account those funds do exist. I have serious doubts that any logical argument can be made that would make it ok for me to digitally copy those funds, keep the original by the way, and give the copies to millions of other people and that not be stealing.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749709' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:07 PM']If you could take the piece of bread and put it in a machine that duplicated it - if you give it away is this stealing? You own the bread 100%. Or what if I type something up, print it, then copy it? No theft here because it was mine all along.[/quote]

If a song was what you created, or if you created the bill or note like a rkwright 5 note. That would be just fine to share with as many as you wanted. Because yes it was yours all along.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749709' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:07 PM']Same with the money in the bank account, maybe? You own the $100. If it were possible to duplicate it, is this wrong? This is where I brought in the physical $100 bill. The crime there is not in creating $100 of purchasing power, its duplicating the bill thats not yours.[/quote]

I am sure the Federal Government would consider it a crime to copy digital money. How exactly does one separate the purchasing power from a digital bill, when the copy is an exact copy of the original?

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749709' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:07 PM']This is getting into the hypothetical realm of duplicating items.

I think it is clear with CDs and other IP you do not actually own the IP and so copying it would be stealing it.[/quote]

I agree.

[CatherineM]

I just found out this morning from the Archbishop's secretary that my book is being lent around the pastoral center. She said the next person in line to read her copy was her boss. I am not going to call the Archbishop and demand that he buy a copy if he is going to read it. I think it is human nature to want to share things with friends. I think it is different if someone was copying it to sell, or was copying it for multitudes of others. I suppose I might also feel differently if I was receiving the profits.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1749745' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:51 PM']I just found out this morning from the Archbishop's secretary that my book is being lent around the pastoral center. She said the next person in line to read her copy was her boss. I am not going to call the Archbishop and demand that he buy a copy if he is going to read it. I think it is human nature to want to share things with friends. I think it is different if someone was copying it to sell, or was copying it for multitudes of others. I suppose I might also feel differently if I was receiving the profits.[/quote]

I think what your talking about with the Archbishop is real sharing, and ok. But that is not the same as P2P 'sharing' which is nothing more than mass duplication of IP which copier/users do not own.

[Nihil Obstat]

Part of the distinction is between copying and sharing.
When you share, there's still only one item. Either you have it or your friend has it, but the only item that exists is the one that is paid for.
When the item is copied, then 'shared' (given away or sold) then you're taking something that was sold to you by the owner, then (as is the case with digital music) taking another one, in a way. It's not stealing in the literal sense that they have less, but it's stealing in the sense of its moral implications on you as a person. You have, or have taken something that you didn't pay for. Regardless of whether or not the artist 'loses' anything, you have something that you shouldn't.

[Mr.Cat]

Casual question, [i]how is [u][url="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pirating+"]pirating[/url][/u] and [u][url="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/counterfeiting+"]counterfeiting[/url][/u] related[/i]? In the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States"]United States of America[/url] our [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money"]money[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency"]system[/url] is regulated by our Federal Government ([i]somehow/someway[/i]), which is a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency"]fait system[/url], surely there may be some parallel, [i]but what is that parallel[/i]?

Hopefully keeping the whole thread continuance intact, with the context, would it be safe to [b]assume[/b] that there is a distinction how physical property and intellectual property are handled, in the scope of private and nonprofit use?

Edited January 13, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1749758' date='Jan 12 2009, 08:12 PM']Casual question, how is pirating and counterfeiting related? In the United States of America our money system is regulated by our Federal Government (somehow/someway), which is a fait system, surely there may be some parallel, but what is that parallel?

Hopefully keeping the whole thread continuance intact, with the context, would it be safe to assume that there is a distinction how physical property and intellectual property are handled, in the scope of private and nonprofit use?[/quote]

Copying is the how pirating or copying music and 'counterfeiting' or copying digital money would be related.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1749761' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:22 PM']Copying is the how pirating or copying music and 'counterfeiting' or copying digital money would be related.[/quote] Are you suggesting that internet pirating is in fact counterfeiting? If so, I am curious to see this connected ([i]the parallel[/i]), in a little more detail.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[KnightofChrist]

In relation to the definition of the type of pirating we are talking about I do think it does parallel with counterfeiting not 'in fact' the same but very similar.

[url="http://www.answers.com/pirating"]pirating[/url] "One who makes use of or reproduces the work of another without authorization."

[url="http://www.answers.com/counterfeiting"]counterfeiting[/url] To make fraudulent copies of something valuable.

Both make copies of something of value without permission or authorization of the owner of the IP.

If it is ok to mass duplicate digital music and 'share' those copies with million of people, can someone also mass duplicate digital US dollars, and 'share those copies with millions of people?

Edited January 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[mortify]

If someone purchases a book, makes a photocopy of it and gives it to me, have I stolen the book?

Edited January 13, 2009 by mortify

[rkwright]

[quote name='mortify' post='1749809' date='Jan 12 2009, 08:45 PM']If someone purchases a book, makes a photocopy of it and gives it to me, have I stolen the book? Many would say no. Is there some theoretical loss of capital to the publisher? Sure, but who cares?[/quote]

Well actually I would say Yes. If copying music is stealing (which I agree it is) then books certainly are also. Its the same IP just in a different form.

IP covers anything that can be copyrighted, trademarked, or patented.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='mortify' post='1749809' date='Jan 12 2009, 06:45 PM']If someone purchases a book, makes a photocopy of it and gives it to me, have I stolen the book? Many would say no. Is there some theoretical loss of capital to the publisher? Sure, but who cares?[/quote]

Who cares? How about the people who's livelyhoods depend on sales of their intellectual property?


Would you go into a store and steal a CD?

[rkwright]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1749813' date='Jan 12 2009, 08:50 PM']Who cares? How about the people who's livelyhoods depend on sales of their intellectual property?


Would you go into a store and steal a CD?[/quote]

Replace CD with book. Who would go into Barnes and Noble and not pay for their book. No one I hope.

[Dust's Sister]

Then the question becomes; The person who actually shares this music (Who isn't the owner).... and if you are the one getting the shared music for free, and You were the one who was offered it, are you sinning? Venial sin? or mortal sin? (When you know it is stealing, because you know that's not the actual owner of the song)

Then the question becomes...

If the actual owner of the song, shares this music for free (undownloadable) (word I made up), just via(internet web browsing) that you can hear this music...... Is this a mortal or venial sin? When you have the intentions of never buying it?