icelandic_iceskater Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 Assuming there's no other morally impermissible acts involved (ESCR, etc) is the cloning of human organs permissible? If so, how much can you clone before it's morally impermissible? Where do you draw the line?
CatherineM Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 I would think so. If they could take a part of your liver, or a donor's liver, then using adult stem cells, create a functioning liver, that would save a bunch of lives.
sweens8403 Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 I agree with CatherineM. Throughout your adult life your body uses what are called adult stem cells which are simply cells whose role in the body has not yet been specified. In fact, your red blood cells all begin like this in the bone marrow. A similar process begins after an egg is fertilized. The zygote begins to divide, and soon stem cells are produced. These stem cells will eventually differentiate into your various organs, connective tissue, blood cells, etc. The difference is that by harvesting embryonic stem cells you destroy the life they support. Harvesting adult stem cells does not result in the death of the donor. So I don't think there would be anything morally reprehensible with organ cloning. It would be akin to people donating their own blood to be used for a surgical operation later, no worries about matching. It would be expensive as all get out though.
Vincent Vega Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 I do not see how cloning organs would comprimise the sanctity of life. Organs in and of themselves have no innate worth or dignity, or souls or anything, so I don't see how cloning organs to enhance the quality of life would be immoral.
CatherineM Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 The cost of cloning organs would be cheaper than several years worth of dialysis and the loss of productivity.
Ziggamafu Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 The interesting part of the question is: [quote]how much can you clone before it's morally impermissible? Where do you draw the line?[/quote] The soul is a non-physical entity, so it would seem inappropriate to say that a certain part of the cloning process (such as the brain) would be immoral (as if the soul "resides" in a specific body part). At the same token, cloning of persons is obviously immoral; so here is my initial reaction: Cloning of [i]individual [/i]living parts (organs and tissues) is okay, but only if they are cloned in isolation (not connected to a greater, even if incomplete, whole).
Nihil Obstat Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 I don't want to hijack, and I'll be happy to start a new thread if you want, but there's something that was bugging me that I want to bring up. As you probably know (or at least as I heard) the UK legalized the 'production' of animal/human hybrid embryos for use in genetic research and some such evil stuff. Do you think these hybrids have human souls? If one, by a sick and twisted fluke, managed to grow and develop, could we call it human?
CatherineM Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1764202' date='Jan 27 2009, 09:34 PM']I don't want to hijack, and I'll be happy to start a new thread if you want, but there's something that was bugging me that I want to bring up. As you probably know (or at least as I heard) the UK legalized the 'production' of animal/human hybrid embryos for use in genetic research and some such evil stuff. Do you think these hybrids have human souls? If one, by a sick and twisted fluke, managed to grow and develop, could we call it human?[/quote] This is the exact reason we should not be messing around with this stuff. When we have to worry about whether it is human or not, has a soul or not, then there is a problem. To answer your question, I don't know.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1764227' date='Jan 27 2009, 09:48 PM']This is the exact reason we should not be messing around with this stuff. When we have to worry about whether it is human or not, has a soul or not, then there is a problem. To answer your question, I don't know.[/quote] My thoughts on that too. It's so disgusting it's hard to even imagine.... but honestly, I don't see why it can't happen. Or rather, why it never could. People are sick enough.
mommas_boy Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1762860' date='Jan 26 2009, 07:55 PM']Assuming there's no other morally impermissible acts involved (ESCR, etc) is the cloning of human organs permissible? If so, how much can you clone before it's morally impermissible? Where do you draw the line?[/quote] I agree with the general thread consensus: so long as a human life is not cloned from which to "harvest" the organs, this appears to be morally viable. However, there may be other methods that I'm not aware of. In my mind, I'm thinking of this like making a jello mold: you pour in the magic mixture into a mold of some kind and out pops an organ some time later, without the messiness of harvest.
mommas_boy Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 [img]http://icanhascheezburger.wordpress.com/files/2009/01/funny-pictures-cloning-results-may-vary.jpg[/img] On a serious note, we should also be cautious about where technology that enables us to grow organs modularly (ie: separate from a human body) came from. Is it the result of research that included the cloning of a person?
Ziggamafu Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Eh. That's tough a lot of science depends on information that was gained in less than ethical ways. Oh, and they have indeed made human/animal hybrids, but [i]as far as has been publicly disclosed[/i], the hybrids have always been killed before could be "born" (reached maturity). This is still being done in some countries. You read about it in the news every few months or so. I would think a soul would be present merely from the presence of a human parent; that it may not have a fully human body but it would have a fully human soul.
cmotherofpirl Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Cloning organs is far better than redefining death and "harvesting" them from helpless humans.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1764509' date='Jan 28 2009, 08:34 AM']Eh. That's tough a lot of science depends on information that was gained in less than ethical ways. Oh, and they have indeed made human/animal hybrids, but [i]as far as has been publicly disclosed[/i], the hybrids have always been killed before could be "born" (reached maturity). This is still being done in some countries. You read about it in the news every few months or so. I would think a soul would be present merely from the presence of a human parent; that it may not have a fully human body but it would have a fully human soul.[/quote] Yea, what I heard in this news report from the UK is that the hybrid embryos are destroyed very quickly. The fact that this is the regular practice though, doesn't mean that it will always be that way.
CatherineM Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 My biggest concern with cloning, especially hybridization, is that we may create something that destroys us all. The worst diseases in history have started as animal diseases, and crossed the barrier. That barrier is there for a reason. Ebola - bats, Swine Flu - duh, AIDS - monkeys, Bubonic plague - fleas. We tend to use pigs for our human experiments. As someone who lost a big chunk of my family to the 1918 Flu, I'm kind of uncomfortable with that idea. One organ that I hope we don't start cloning is the uterus. Rich people who either don't want to mess with a pregnancy, can't carry a child to term, or a gay marriage situation, are already renting out uteruses. Some of those end up legally sticky, surrogate moms change their minds, divorces happen while waiting, or adoption legalities. You can't tell me that if the option of a laboratory grown uterus, perhaps implanted in a pig, was an option, that people wouldn't jump at it.
HisChildForever Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 I really have no idea if a human/animal hybrid would have a soul. I am leaning towards saying "no." A human is created from two humans. A being created from a human and a lesser animal is something else. Just because the hybrid may look like a human does not mean it is a human. (I am not trying to be cruel.) Life - the soul - starts at conception, when a human egg and a human sperm meet, and the sperm fertilizes the egg. An egg by itself is not a human being, and a sperm by itself is not a human being.
Ziggamafu Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1764771' date='Jan 28 2009, 04:12 PM']My biggest concern with cloning, especially hybridization, is that we may create something that destroys us all. The worst diseases in history have started as animal diseases, and crossed the barrier. That barrier is there for a reason. Ebola - bats, Swine Flu - duh, AIDS - monkeys, Bubonic plague - fleas. We tend to use pigs for our human experiments. As someone who lost a big chunk of my family to the 1918 Flu, I'm kind of uncomfortable with that idea. One organ that I hope we don't start cloning is the uterus. Rich people who either don't want to mess with a pregnancy, can't carry a child to term, or a gay marriage situation, are already renting out uteruses. Some of those end up legally sticky, surrogate moms change their minds, divorces happen while waiting, or adoption legalities. You can't tell me that if the option of a laboratory grown uterus, perhaps implanted in a pig, was an option, that people wouldn't jump at it.[/quote] Oh, don't worry. Artificial womb technology will almost certainly be perfected on a mass-market scale within the next ten years, effectively replacing natural pregnancy as the standard procedure. Nice, huh? I can imagine insurance companies and the mother's workplace putting a lot of pressure to opt for the safer, more efficient method. "And just think," they'll say, "you get to watch the beauty of your developing child before your very eyes!"
sweens8403 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1764202' date='Jan 27 2009, 11:34 PM']Do you think these hybrids have human souls? If one, by a sick and twisted fluke, managed to grow and develop, could we call it human?[/quote] The real trick is dealing with the atheistic/antitheistic scientists and society who don't subscribe to the concept of souls. Out of curiosity have these scientists participating in these studies said what they're hoping to glean from it? Animal strength in humans? Disease resistance (afterall, many animals can eat raw (sometimes scavenged) meat with no ill effects)? Glossy fur coats? Or just because they can?
Winchester Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 [quote name='sweens8403' post='1762924' date='Jan 26 2009, 08:36 PM']I agree with CatherineM. Throughout your adult life your body uses what are called adult stem cells which are simply cells whose role in the body has not yet been specified. In fact, your red blood cells all begin like this in the bone marrow. A similar process begins after an egg is fertilized. The zygote begins to divide, and soon stem cells are produced. These stem cells will eventually differentiate into your various organs, connective tissue, blood cells, etc. The difference is that by harvesting embryonic stem cells you destroy the life they support. Harvesting adult stem cells does not result in the death of the donor. So I don't think there would be anything morally reprehensible with organ cloning. It would be akin to people donating their own blood to be used for a surgical operation later, no worries about matching. It would be expensive as all get out though.[/quote] [img]http://theintvduals.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/doogie-howser-md.jpg[/img]
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