picchick Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1764202' date='Jan 27 2009, 10:34 PM']Do you think these hybrids have human souls? If one, by a sick and twisted fluke, managed to grow and develop, could we call it human?[/quote] Why not? I do not think that it will manage to grow and develop.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 [quote name='sweens8403' post='1764947' date='Jan 28 2009, 06:45 PM']The real trick is dealing with the atheistic/antitheistic scientists and society who don't subscribe to the concept of souls. Out of curiosity have these scientists participating in these studies said what they're hoping to glean from it? Animal strength in humans? Disease resistance (afterall, many animals can eat raw (sometimes scavenged) meat with no ill effects)? Glossy fur coats? Or just because they can?[/quote] "Just because they can", probably. I have a feeling that it's somehow similar to embryonic stem cell research, etc. I'm not well versed. Something I should mention, it's pretty unlikely that such a hybrid even [b]could[/b] develop. It would probably naturally die long before we'd have to worry about it, so my question was more hypothetical than realistic.
cmotherofpirl Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1764202' date='Jan 27 2009, 11:34 PM']I don't want to hijack, and I'll be happy to start a new thread if you want, but there's something that was bugging me that I want to bring up. As you probably know (or at least as I heard) the UK legalized the 'production' of animal/human hybrid embryos for use in genetic research and some such evil stuff. Do you think these hybrids have human souls? If one, by a sick and twisted fluke, managed to grow and develop, could we call it human?[/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)[/url]
picchick Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1765099' date='Jan 28 2009, 09:39 PM'][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)[/url][/quote] Poor little sheep goat...doesn't know how ugly it is. Really is it our place to figure out whether those humanimals have souls or not? Let God take care of that.
abercius24 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) [quote name='picchick' post='1765374' date='Jan 29 2009, 12:38 AM']Really is it our place to figure out whether those humanimals have souls or not? Let God take care of that.[/quote] The biggest question would be one of our approach toward justice if they grew into a juvenile or adult stage. If one killed another, would we be morally obligated to have a trial and enforce a just punishment? Or would simply putting them down like we do man-eating bears be our solution? If it ever came to this, the Church has a general definition of the soul that would allow her to guide us to a right answer. Frankly, if these "humanimals" demonstrate an intellect and a free-will, then I'd be happy to consider them sentient beings just like the rest of us humans. But would they have inherited original sin and be in need of salvation as we do? We would really need the Church to answer that question. Though, we should heavily pray the Lord saves us from such complications. Lord have mercy. As far as cloning organs from adult stem cells, I don't see the harm outside of what dangerous roads those technologies could otherwise take us. We grow skin as part of skin grafts. Why not other body parts? And by definition, a soul is that which gives oneness -- unity -- to a group of organs or cells (depending on how granular you want to see it). An organ is only a part. It cannot have a soul of its own. Harvesting organs from fully grown clones -- like in the movie [spoiler]The Island[/spoiler] -- that is clearly wrong because the clone is basically a scientifically engineered twin brother/sister with his/her own soul from which parts are being stolen. Edited January 29, 2009 by abercius24
Veridicus Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1764202' date='Jan 27 2009, 10:34 PM']As you probably know (or at least as I heard) the UK legalized the 'production' of animal/human hybrid embryos for use in genetic research and some such evil stuff. Do you think these hybrids have human souls? If one, by a sick and twisted fluke, managed to grow and develop, could we call it human?[/quote] Define Hybrid. Are they inserting animal genes into human zygotes? Or are these truly chimeric hybrids with mixed cell lines of human and animal cells on the same plate? There is a big difference. I imagine it is the first case...which I think is probably already crossing the line on ethical standards. But given it is just a gene or several genes inserted into the countless basepairs of DNA...then it is still DEFINITELY HUMAN. I mean viruses often insert themselves into our DNA and leave behind remnant pseudogenes that have little function but leave that cell different than it was when they found it. If by hybrid you mean it in the proper chimeric sense, then I do not think there is any possible way the developing embryo would be viable. The cell-to-cell signalling would be all off...not to mention the problems with immunity and autoimmunity. It would be liable to have an immune system develop and start attacking the other half of itself. No way it would survive. Given this chimera's intrinsic inability to maintain its internal cohesion, its lack of 'animation' in the proper sense...its utter incapacity to develop into a human...I would say it does NOT have a soul. The soul is what animates the body. This line of thinking makes me ponder about conceptions with profound chromosomal abnormalities which are incompatible with life...usually these pregnancies spontaneously abort in the first few weeks. I wonder what Thomas Aquinas would say about the 'soul' or no 'soul' question of these conceptions.....guess that's a post for another thread.
Veridicus Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1764771' date='Jan 28 2009, 03:12 PM']One organ that I hope we don't start cloning is the uterus. Rich people who either don't want to mess with a pregnancy, can't carry a child to term, or a gay marriage situation, are already renting out uteruses. Some of those end up legally sticky, surrogate moms change their minds, divorces happen while waiting, or adoption legalities. You can't tell me that if the option of a laboratory grown uterus, perhaps implanted in a pig, was an option, that people wouldn't jump at it.[/quote] I don't know that a human fetus in a pig would work. Its not just a location thing, but maternal hormones and other chemicals which cross the placenta may be important in directing tissue growth and maturation..and while the womb is a relatively shielded site from the mother's immune system, I wonder as well if there would be some giant issues with a pig's body rejecting the uterus/fetus outright.
Veridicus Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) [quote name='picchick' post='1765374' date='Jan 29 2009, 12:38 AM']Really is it our place to figure out whether those humanimals have souls or not? Let God take care of that.[/quote] I would say it is our place to figure it out because the gravity of our actions seem to somewhat depend on whether the tissue/creature in question deserves the natural law protection that we afford human beings that have rational, immortal souls. Then again...how do you try to glean from the natural law in regard to something wholly unnatural????? Edited January 29, 2009 by Veridicus
picchick Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='abercius24' post='1765420' date='Jan 29 2009, 01:04 AM']The biggest question would be one of our approach toward justice if they grew into a juvenile or adult stage. If one killed another, would we be morally obligated to have a trial and enforce a just punishment? Or would simply putting them down like we do man-eating bears be our solution? If it ever came to this, the Church has a general definition of the soul that would allow her to guide us to a right answer. Frankly, if these "humanimals" demonstrate an intellect and a free-will, then I'd be happy to consider them sentient beings just like the rest of us humans. But would they have inherited original sin and be in need of salvation as we do? We would really need the Church to answer that question. Though, we should heavily pray the Lord saves us from such complications. Lord have mercy. As far as cloning organs from adult stem cells, I don't see the harm outside of what dangerous roads those technologies could otherwise take us. We grow skin as part of skin grafts. Why not other body parts? And by definition, a soul is that which gives oneness -- unity -- to a group of organs or cells (depending on how granular you want to see it). An organ is only a part. It cannot have a soul of its own. Harvesting organs from fully grown clones -- like in the movie [spoiler]The Island[/spoiler] -- that is clearly wrong because the clone is basically a scientifically engineered twin brother/sister with his/her own soul from which parts are being stolen.[/quote] [quote name='Veridicus' post='1765895' date='Jan 29 2009, 04:08 PM']I would say it is our place to figure it out because the gravity of our actions seem to somewhat depend on whether the tissue/creature in question deserves the natural law protection that we afford human beings that have rational, immortal souls. Then again...how do you try to glean from the natural law in regard to something wholly unnatural????? [/quote] I was waiting for people to bring this up. Then it would of course depend on the cognitive functioning of the humanimal. What do you do for a person who is metally challenged? As the mentally challenged human being matures, we cannot hold them totally accountable for their actions. Does that cause them not to have a soul? If they were to kill another how do we hold THEM accountable. I think that we should treat the humanimals the same way. It would all depend on their cognitive functioning. After thinking about it, I do not think that humanimals will be able to function at the same intellectual and cognitive level that you or I do. You see who one gene mutation can cause a whole slew of cognitive dysfunctions. What happens when we had a whole set of animal genes to the mix? I do not think that we would have to worry if they have a soul or not. I think that we should leave that up to God. I think that we educate them to the functioning capacity that they can be educated too and leave the rest up to God. I think that we care for them we would any other human because, despite being part animal, they still have that human entity and should be treated with dignity.
Veridicus Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1766064' date='Jan 29 2009, 07:01 PM']I do not think that we would have to worry if they have a soul or not. I think that we should leave that up to God. I think that we educate them to the functioning capacity that they can be educated too and leave the rest up to God. I think that we care for them we would any other human because, despite being part animal, they still have that human entity and should be treated with dignity.[/quote] You really get into these fantastical hypotheticals don't you?
picchick Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1766077' date='Jan 29 2009, 07:15 PM']You really get into these fantastical hypotheticals don't you? [/quote] ooohhh yeah
rkwright Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='abercius24' post='1765420' date='Jan 29 2009, 01:04 AM']The biggest question would be one of our approach toward justice if they grew into a juvenile or adult stage. If one killed another, would we be morally obligated to have a trial and enforce a just punishment? Or would simply putting them down like we do man-eating bears be our solution? If it ever came to this, the Church has a general definition of the soul that would allow her to guide us to a right answer. Frankly, if these "humanimals" demonstrate an intellect and a free-will, then I'd be happy to consider them sentient beings just like the rest of us humans.[/quote] I have to disagree. What makes us a human with inherent dignity is not the existence of sentience or evidence of free will. Consider this: An infant barely exhibits any signs of sentience or free will (maybe no more than a dog). Certainly we wouldn't say this is not a human. Extend it to a fetus, and we have a justification for abortions. My point is that what defines us a humans has nothing to do with our capabilities. A fetus, and infant, a 20 yr person and an 80 yr old person are all humans and have the same dignity regardless of their capabilities.
rkwright Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1764763' date='Jan 28 2009, 03:00 PM']Yea, what I heard in this news report from the UK is that the hybrid embryos are destroyed very quickly. The fact that this is the regular practice though, doesn't mean that it will always be that way.[/quote] Can you explain how this works? Is it a human egg and sperm that are implanted in an animal? Or a human egg and animal sperm?
CatherineM Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 The funny thing about hypotheticals in science is that have the nasty habit of becoming reality. I love the line from Jurassic Park that the scientists were so busy trying to see if they could do something, that they didn't stop to think[i][b] if[/b][/i] they should do it.
cmotherofpirl Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1766099' date='Jan 29 2009, 08:32 PM']Can you explain how this works? Is it a human egg and sperm that are implanted in an animal? Or a human egg and animal sperm?[/quote] read post 23
Veridicus Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1766099' date='Jan 29 2009, 07:32 PM']Can you explain how this works? Is it a human egg and sperm that are implanted in an animal? Or a human egg and animal sperm?[/quote] It is not a human egg and an animal sperm. First off the chemical specificity of the sperm receptor is highly, HIGHLY specific for a human egg...sot he sperm would never penetrate the zona pellucida in order to deliver its DNA into the egg. Secondly, they are chromosomally incompatible. The chromosomes must align appropriately (humans and rabbits for example have different numbers/shapes to their chromosomes so they can't align appropriately and then the resulting daughter cells die) And it isn't a human egg and sperm implanted in an animal either...that would just be a weird form of surrogate maternity...and I don't think that would work immunilogically or hormonally either. From what I can tell is they take an early stage human embryo (say less 8-16 cells total) and stick a few animal embryo cells in with the mix. The cells start talkin to eachother in their sophisticated chemical languages and each tries to grow into what it was destined to be. The problem is that cross-species hybrids just aren't viable. Heck horses and donkeys barely can breed together (don't forget mules are sterile). Humans and rabbits are definitely incompatible for life.
cmotherofpirl Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1766215' date='Jan 29 2009, 10:20 PM']It is not a human egg and an animal sperm. First off the chemical specificity of the sperm receptor is highly, HIGHLY specific for a human egg...sot he sperm would never penetrate the zona pellucida in order to deliver its DNA into the egg. Secondly, they are chromosomally incompatible. The chromosomes must align appropriately (humans and rabbits for example have different numbers/shapes to their chromosomes so they can't align appropriately and then the resulting daughter cells die) And it isn't a human egg and sperm implanted in an animal either...that would just be a weird form of surrogate maternity...and I don't think that would work immunilogically or hormonally either. From what I can tell is they take an early stage human embryo (say less 8-16 cells total) and stick a few animal embryo cells in with the mix. The cells start talkin to eachother in their sophisticated chemical languages and each tries to grow into what it was destined to be. The problem is that cross-species hybrids just aren't viable. Heck horses and donkeys barely can breed together (don't forget mules are sterile). Humans and rabbits are definitely incompatible for life.[/quote] Then how did they make a geep?
Veridicus Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1766221' date='Jan 29 2009, 09:23 PM']Then how did they make a geep?[/quote] They mixed very early stage sheep and goat embryonic stem cells. So long as the embryos are early enough they haven't differentiated into cells destined to become 'legs' or 'brains' or organs. This is a highly simplified explanation, but should help. Apparently the signalling pathways between these related animals were similar enough to produce a viable (don't know if it was fecund) geep from the early stage embryonic cells. That doesn't mean that the mother's immune system still didn't try like heckfire to reject the conception.
picchick Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1766221' date='Jan 29 2009, 09:23 PM']Then how did they make a geep?[/quote] I that it was a loat...or lid....or shoat.
Tinkerlina Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1762860' date='Jan 26 2009, 08:55 PM']Assuming there's no other morally impermissible acts involved (ESCR, etc) is the cloning of human organs permissible? If so, how much can you clone before it's morally impermissible? Where do you draw the line?[/quote] Hmm, I would think it would be ok if the issue were very strictly confined to the cloning of consenting humans and individual organs. -Katie
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