Lil Red Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 +J.M.J.+ [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/us/03bar.html?_r=1&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink"]the NY Times[/url] asks if it is 'cruel and unusual' punishment to send a 13 year old boy to death row for raping a 72-year old woman twice at knifepoint. [url="http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/access/50578575.html?FMT=FT&dids=50578575:50578575&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Dec+14%2C+1989&author=ap&pub=St.+Petersburg+Times&desc=Teen+gets+life+terms+for+raping+woman"]this was the original article in 1989.[/url]
HisChildForever Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 How horrendous. The norm - juvenile court. However, for severe crimes, a juvenile can be treated like an adult and be sent to adult court. While the juvenile would get an adult sentence, he or she would be first placed in a juvenile facility until 18 (and then will be moved to an adult facility). As for the death penalty? I would have to say "no" because he committed the offense at age 13.
Lil Red Posted February 3, 2009 Author Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1771250' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:09 PM']I would have to say "no" because he committed the offense at age 13.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ why? i think in the original article, it did say that he already had a long criminal record (which usually in adults leads to harsher sentencing/punishments). also, i think the NY Times article is intentionally pushing the emotional buttons.
Lil Red Posted February 3, 2009 Author Posted February 3, 2009 +J.M.J.+ btw, i'm not saying i advocate for the death penalty in his case. just trying to play devil's advocate. i think a life sentence would be appropriate though.
VoTeckam Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) How young is too young for the death penalty? Oh I'd say executing anyone under 175 is immoral and unnecessary in America... Edited February 3, 2009 by VoTeckam
T-Bone _ Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771267' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:31 PM']How young is too young for the death penalty? Oh I'd say executing anyone under 175 is immoral and unnecessary in America...[/quote] Except that murders tend to keep murdering, even inside jail.
VoTeckam Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) [quote name='T-Bone _' post='1771287' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:46 PM']Except that murders tend to keep murdering, even inside jail.[/quote] Any stats on this? Even if there is a larger percentage of murders in jail than there is in the general population there are certainly other ways to prevent this than to murder murders, no? We must persue every option before the death penalty is used. Edited February 3, 2009 by VoTeckam
CatherineM Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 My father would have said you are just as dead if you are killed by a 16 year old or a 60 year old. As a very outspoken opponent of the death penalty, I would agree that 175 is still too young. However, as someone from the last state to execute someone who committed murder before the age of 18, I would like to point out that a child's brain doesn't work the same way as an adult's brain. I can't remember where I saw it, but the human brain is still developing until the age of 25 or so.
HisChildForever Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1771253' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:14 PM']+J.M.J.+ why? i think in the original article, it did say that he already had a long criminal record (which usually in adults leads to harsher sentencing/punishments).[/quote] We discussed this in class (Community Corrections) just last week. If an individual commits a crime at age 15 (for example) and does not get caught until they are 40, they committed the crime as a juvenile, therefore for that specific crime, it will be in juvenile court (unless, as I mentioned above, the offense is serious enough and the case is waivered to adult court).
HisChildForever Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771292' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:52 PM']Any stats on this? Even if there is a larger percentage of murders in jail than there is in the general population there are certainly other ways to prevent this than to murder murders, no? We must persue every option before the death penalty is used.[/quote] Basically, if you sentence a dangerous individual (in this instance, a murderer) to life in prison without parole, they have absolutely no motivation to be on their best (or at least civilized) behavior. Perhaps if they behave themselves they will be able to apply for certain programs (such as community service - just to get out of the prison for a few hours), but this would be short-term motivation. And even then some may not bother to care about such programs. What would you suggest, may I ask? Solitary confinement? How is that any more humane than the death penalty?
VoTeckam Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1771353' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:26 PM']Basically, if you sentence a dangerous individual (in this instance, a murderer) to life in prison without parole, they have absolutely no motivation to be on their best (or at least civilized) behavior. Perhaps if they behave themselves they will be able to apply for certain programs (such as community service - just to get out of the prison for a few hours), but this would be short-term motivation. And even then some may not bother to care about such programs. What would you suggest, may I ask? Solitary confinement? How is that any more humane than the death penalty?[/quote] As someone who is involved in prison minstry I would suggest an actual rehabilitation system instead of the kennels that are currently in use. Access to education, therapy, work programs and FORGIVENESS... all of these would be a good start.
rkwright Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1771353' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:26 PM']Basically, if you sentence a dangerous individual (in this instance, a murderer) to life in prison without parole, they have absolutely no motivation to be on their best (or at least civilized) behavior. Perhaps if they behave themselves they will be able to apply for certain programs (such as community service - just to get out of the prison for a few hours), but this would be short-term motivation. And even then some may not bother to care about such programs. What would you suggest, may I ask? Solitary confinement? How is that any more humane than the death penalty?[/quote] oh gee... I dunno, they're not dead?
HisChildForever Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771367' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:37 PM']As someone who is involved in prison minstry I would suggest an actual rehabilitation system instead of the kennels that are currently in use. Access to education, therapy, work programs and FORGIVENESS... all of these would be a good start.[/quote] Do you work with murderers? (Genuine question stemming from great interest). I do not have much time to type an appropriate response to this but I will after work. [quote name='rkwright' post='1771369' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:38 PM']oh gee... I dunno, they're not dead?[/quote] Rudeness really has no place here.
Veridicus Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) I think the death penalty, while seemingly 'just' by our innate human craving for exacting justice, is an affront to God when there is any other course of action available. In the US there is always another option beyond the death penalty. Sentencing a child to death, no matter how grave or depraved the crime, just demonstrates a lack of belief in the capacity for redemption in the human person. Edited February 3, 2009 by Veridicus
cmotherofpirl Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771367' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:37 PM']As someone who is involved in prison minstry I would suggest an actual rehabilitation system instead of the kennels that are currently in use. Access to education, therapy, work programs and FORGIVENESS... all of these would be a good start.[/quote] Forgiveness and justice are two different things. You can be forgiven but still have to serve your sentence. If you eventually are going to be released or not getting the death penalty - education, therapy, religious ministry and work programs are excellent programs.
VoTeckam Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771379' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:51 PM']Forgiveness and justice are two different things. You can be forgiven but still have to serve your sentence. If you eventually are going to be released or not getting the death penalty - education, therapy, religious ministry and work programs are excellent programs.[/quote] The forgiveness I was suggesting was to come from us... not the justice system. Of course a murder is expected to serve their sentence in prison, but even if that sentence is a life sentence why should they not have access to the things I listed above? Like a previous poster mentioned, without any of those things the prisioner is left with no hope (and a lack of hope and love is the very essence of evil) and the liklihood of violence in prision becomes greater.
Veridicus Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1771353' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:26 PM']What would you suggest, may I ask? Solitary confinement? How is that any more humane than the death penalty?[/quote] Anything is more humane than the death penalty. Ending someone's life deprives them of the opportunity to experience the transforming grace of God's love. Perhaps in solitary that individual finally has the quiet needed to hear God's voice in his heart.
Resurrexi Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 My input: why on earth would anyone rape a 72 year old woman? Seriously...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1771389' date='Feb 3 2009, 06:11 PM']Anything is more humane than the death penalty. Ending someone's life deprives them of the opportunity to experience the transforming grace of God's love. Perhaps in solitary that individual finally has the quiet needed to hear God's voice in his heart.[/quote] If an upcoming death penalty date doesn't give you a change of heart, nothing will.
rkwright Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771483' date='Feb 3 2009, 06:51 PM']If an upcoming death penalty date doesn't give you a change of heart, nothing will.[/quote] I disagree. An 18 yr old may still be very stubborn no matter what the sentence. Maybe someone in 40s might come around and have a change of heart after years of dwelling on it and maturing. Either way, we'll never know if they would have had a change of heart if they're dead.
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