The Greek Orthodox Churches

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787817' date='Feb 22 2009, 12:08 AM']For unity to occur the East will have to submit to the Pope, there simply is no other way.[/quote]


I concur

Edited February 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Aloysius]

the Church will require their "submission to Rome" only in the sense of a First Millenium ecclesiological structure, most likely. Rome's push towards unity with the East tends towards them offering to take any possibility of micro-management off the table, so the ecclesiological structure might not be to your liking, mortify, in terms of how you define "submitting"

there is the ecclesiological issue, which I think Rome is not too far from solving, except that it is not well executed in the Eastern Catholic Churches yet; and then there's the doctrinal issues, which even now divide the Eastern Catholic Churches as to where things should go from here and how far de-latinization can go before it becomes de-unity

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787817' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:08 PM']For unity to occur the East will have to submit to the Pope, there simply is no other way.[/quote]
I do not agree, for as the Melkite Catholic Patriarch says: "I am [i]cum Petro[/i] but not [i]sub Petro[/i]. If I were [i]sub Petro[/i], I would be in submission, and I couldn’t have a true frank, sincere, strong and free communion with the Pope. When you embrace a friend, you are not 'below.' You embrace him from the same height, if not it wouldn’t be a true embrace."

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1787820' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:11 AM']Since primacy and synodality properly understood are inseparable, I would say that it is not possible for the Pope to act infallibly alone, but only when the entire episcopate acts with him as one.[/quote]

So you don't accept the dogma of the Pope being infallible when declaring [i]ex cathedra[/i]?

[Apotheoun]

The Eastern Orthodox will never accept the concept of Papal Supremacy, but the acceptance of Papal Primacy is another matter altogether.

[Aloysius]

And the Roman Church will never abandon extraordinary Papal infallibility, and therein lies the real impass.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1787823' date='Feb 22 2009, 12:13 AM']the Church will require their "submission to Rome" only in the sense of a First Millenium ecclesiological structure, most likely. Rome's push towards unity with the East tends towards them offering to take any possibility of micro-management off the table, so the ecclesiological structure might not be to your liking, mortify, in terms of how you define "submitting"

there is the ecclesiological issue, which I think Rome is not too far from solving, except that it is not well executed in the Eastern Catholic Churches yet; and then there's the doctrinal issues, which even now divide the Eastern Catholic Churches as to where things should go from here and how far de-latinization can go before it becomes de-unity[/quote]

In disciplinary matters, a first millennium structure would work fine (excluding canonizations ) as long as it was acknowledged that the Supreme Pontiff "in virtue of his office, enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise." (Codex canonum ecclesiarum orientalium, Can. 43)

But in regards to doctrinal matters, Lumen Gentium 25 applies just as much to the Eastern Churches as it does to the Latin Church.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[mortify]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1787823' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:13 AM']the Church will require their "submission to Rome" only in the sense of a First Millenium ecclesiological structure, most likely. Rome's push towards unity with the East tends towards them offering to take any possibility of micro-management off the table, so the ecclesiological structure might not be to your liking, mortify, in terms of how you define "submitting"[/quote]

Do you have any idea how those early Pontiffs understood their primacy?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787829' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:17 PM']So you don't accept the dogma of the Pope being infallible when declaring [i]ex cathedra[/i]?[/quote]
The answer to that question should be self-evident from my previous posts on the non-ecumenical status of Vatican I. The decrees of Vatican I are not ecumenical, and as a consequence they are not – as Melkite Archbishop Zoghby said – infallible.

As an Eastern Catholic I accept the Seven Ecumenical Councils as binding upon all Christians.

[Resurrexi]

BTW I just love how everyone is ignoring me.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1787835' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:24 AM']The answer to that question should be self-evident from my previous posts on the non-ecumenical status of Vatican I. The decrees of Vatican I are not ecumenical, and as a consequence they are not – as Melkite Archbishop Zoghby said – infallible.

As an Eastern Catholic I accept the Seven Ecumenical Councils as binding upon all Christians.[/quote]

I'm just stunned by your answers, had to make sure I was understanding you correctly.

[Aloysius]

[quote]Do you have any idea how those early Pontiffs understood their primacy[/quote]
I don't now have the time to cite you sources, you can research it on your own if you like; but it came down to the Pope being first among equals in regard to the other patriarchs except that he had the final say if/when it was necessary; Popes never had direct governance over Eastern Churches except by being the uniting principal for them. understanding his supreme authority in that sense is essential for synthesizing a first millenium model that doesn't contradict Vaticans I or II.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787836' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:26 PM']BTW I just love how everyone is ignoring me.[/quote]
I'm not ignoring you. I read each and every one of your posts, although I do not choose to respond to everything that you write.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787836' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:26 AM']BTW I just love how everyone is ignoring me.[/quote]
not ignoring you, your input is adding to the conversation even if you are not directly responded to.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1787839' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:29 PM']I don't now have the time to cite you sources, you can research it on your own if you like; but it came down to the Pope being first among equals in regard to the other patriarchs except that he had the final say if/when it was necessary; Popes never had direct governance over Eastern Churches except by being the uniting principal for them. understanding his supreme authority in that sense is essential for synthesizing a first millenium model that doesn't contradict Vaticans I or II.[/quote]
I basically agree with your comments (both in this thread and in the one from a few weeks ago), including the comment I have quoted above (except that I would substitute the word "primacy" where you put "supreme authority").

Nevertheless, Vatican I and Vatican II are particular synods of the Roman Church, and are binding only for Latins.

[Aloysius]

haha and it is the issue of the councils that we most disagree on. of course, the discussion between you and I is the type of discussion that could in theory go on these days between two Eastern Catholics, as both positions are present within the Eastern Catholic Churches.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1787843' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:37 PM']haha and it is the issue of the councils that we most disagree on. of course, the discussion between you and I is the type of discussion that could in theory go on these days between two Eastern Catholics, as both positions are present within the Eastern Catholic Churches.[/quote]
True enough. I have embraced the position of the Melkite Catholic Church, but different Eastern Churches are at different stages in the process of De-Latinization.

[Resurrexi]

There is a point when de-Latinization become de-Catholicization.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787845' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:39 PM']There is a point when de-Latinization become de-Catholicization.[/quote]
I don't share your opinion, and ironically enough for nearly 50 years now the popes have been encouraging the process of De-Latinization.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1787848' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:44 AM']I don't share your opinion, and ironically enough for nearly 50 years now the popes have been encouraging the process of De-Latinization.[/quote]

Perhaps they are wrong.