Muslim Student Seeks Place To Pray Boy's Mother Fights For His Rig

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1786454' date='Feb 20 2009, 01:30 PM']I know an outdoor preacher who screamed at Muslims walking around that Muhammad was a liar, a pedophile, and Allah was a moon god.

So I don't think that all people are afraid.[/quote]

When my boys had to deal with bullies at school, I always told them to act over the top nuts, because then the bullies would be afraid of them instead. I've had lots of soap box standing, corner preachers scream at me, and no one takes them serious. That means they can get away with stuff that the rest of us can't.

I'm aware that all people aren't afraid. I don't lose sleep over it because I don't have any more control over planes flying into buildings than I do drunks running over me in cross walks, so I might as well focus on stuff I can control.

[Hassan]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1786491' date='Feb 20 2009, 04:30 PM']When my boys had to deal with bullies at school, I always told them to act over the top nuts, because then the bullies would be afraid of them instead. I've had lots of soap box standing, corner preachers scream at me, and no one takes them serious. That means they can get away with stuff that the rest of us can't.

I'm aware that all people aren't afraid. I don't lose sleep over it because I don't have any more control over planes flying into buildings than I do drunks running over me in cross walks, so I might as well focus on stuff I can control.[/quote]

Colbert and Maher have both been fairly offensive to Islam in general and, in the case of Colbert, Muhammad. I had some friends in a classical islam class. One's a hard core Catholic who did a presentation on John of Damascus's report on Islam which was not to flattering and talken openly about his end of the year major paper being in Islam as a Christian heresy, another showed a video by Spencer and Horawitz which was pretty bad, about half the class was Muslim and it wasn't a problem.

That does not discount things like what happened to Rushdi or with the cartoon mess I know.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1786454' date='Feb 20 2009, 02:30 PM']I know an outdoor preacher who screamed at Muslims walking around that Muhammad was a liar, a pedophile, and Allah was a moon god.[/quote]

I thought he had sexual relations with a nine-year-old.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786728' date='Feb 20 2009, 09:21 PM']I thought he had sexual relations with a nine-year-old.[/quote]


Aisha, yes, somewhere around that age.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1786757' date='Feb 20 2009, 08:44 PM']Aisha, yes, somewhere around that age.[/quote]

Would that not make him a pedophile?

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786775' date='Feb 20 2009, 10:04 PM']Would that not make him a pedophile?[/quote]


I think that depends on whether or not Aisha had reached puberty. For him to actually be a pedophile I think he would also need to have a history of needing the individual to be pre prepubescent. Whether or not Aisha had reached puberty yet is disputed, with his defenders saying she had and his detractors saying she had not. If Muhammad was a pedophile I think is a weak argument given he remained devoted to her throughout her life and his attraction to her seemed to be irrelivant to her age and the ages of his other wives. I believe most of his wives were actually fairly older.

If Muhammad had some sort of habit of only marying young girls I would consider that a fair charge, given the cultural and political dimensions of his marriage to her (firming up his relationship between him and her father Abu Bakr), the independence of his affection to her to her age, and the ages of his other wives I don't think it is fair.

It is a nice flashpoint given contemporary norms, however it is somewhat rude.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1786792' date='Feb 20 2009, 09:15 PM']I think that depends on whether or not Aisha had reached puberty.[/quote]

This is a bit ridiculous. If a child reached puberty at age twelve, it would be okay to have sexual relations with her, simply because she had hit puberty?

[quote]For him to actually be a pedophile I think he would also need to have a history of needing the individual to be pre prepubescent.[/quote]

So a man would have to have sex with more than one child before he can be labeled a pedophile? That is like saying you have to murder more than one person to be called a murderer.

[quote]If Muhammad was a pedophile I think is a weak argument given he remained devoted to her throughout her life and his attraction to her seemed to be irrelivant to her age and the ages of his other wives. I believe most of his wives were actually fairly older.[/quote]

His "affections" for the girl do not justify having sex with her.

[quote]It is a nice flashpoint given contemporary norms, however it is somewhat rude.[/quote]

Shame on me for criticizing a man who had sex with a child.

[BG45]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786819' date='Feb 20 2009, 10:30 PM']Shame on me for criticizing a man who had sex with a child.[/quote]

Pesky facts like Muhammad having sex with a child tend to be a constant problem with the Mohammed/child wife debate. Nine was a bit young, even for the days of 12-13 year old marriage and childbirth.

As to the OP, I can see the mother's point to an extent. As many have said before; it's easy to see both sides.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786728' date='Feb 20 2009, 08:21 PM']I thought he had sexual relations with a nine-year-old.[/quote]

mohammad had sexual relations with a 9 year old? what a perve!

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1786857' date='Feb 20 2009, 09:54 PM']mohammad had sexual relations with a 9 year old? what a perve![/quote]

According to Hassan, since Muhammad only had sexual relations with [b]one[/b] child, he is not considered a pedophile.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786819' date='Feb 20 2009, 10:30 PM']This is a bit ridiculous. If a child reached puberty at age twelve, it would be okay to have sexual relations with her, simply because she had hit puberty?[/quote]

I don't know. In contemporary western culture it would not, however the age differences and age of the woman, amongst numerous other standards, have shifted considerably over time.


[quote]So a man would have to have sex with more than one child before he can be labeled a pedophile? That is like saying you have to murder more than one person to be called a murderer.[/quote]

I would suggust you reread what I said if that is what you took from it.

[quote]His "affections" for the girl do not justify having sex with her.[/quote]

ok, in both this and your previous point you either failed to understand what I was saying or are simply trying to contort my point so you can have a nice "gotcha" line. If it's the former then I hope you go back and read more carefully, if the latter then a bit more maturity would be nice.

[quote]Shame on me for criticizing a man who had sex with a child.[/quote]


I doubt you would appreciate me calling Joseph a dirty old man for planning to have sexual relations with the considerably younger Mary. He would be by todays cultural norms, in his context this was perfectly normal. Abraham would not be judged kindly for marying his half sister today, I don't think it would be fair for me to call him a pervert for following a perfectly accectable cultural custom of his day. I'm sure if I skimmed the Bible I could find quite a few other relationships which in today's culture would raise some eyebrows, it would hardly be fair to judge them in today's light.

[CatherineM]

I was 5'4" when I was 9 years old. I wonder if I could have taken him if he'd tried something with me.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786912' date='Feb 20 2009, 11:38 PM']According to Hassan, since Muhammad only had sexual relations with [b]one[/b] child, he is not considered a pedophile.[/quote]

Let's not pretend to be obtuse. I will try to not mischaracterize your point and would appreciate the same courtesy

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1786930' date='Feb 20 2009, 10:44 PM']ok, in both this and your previous point you either failed to understand what I was saying or are simply trying to contort my point so you can have a nice "gotcha" line. If it's the former then I hope you go back and read more carefully, if the latter then a bit more maturity would be nice.[/quote]

Perhaps you could better clarify yourself, as opposed to lecturing me on my maturity.

[quote]I doubt you would appreciate me calling Joseph a dirty old man for planning to have sexual relations with the considerably younger Mary.[/quote]

There is a theory that Mary was a consecrated virgin and that Joseph was meant to be a guardian, not a husband; of course living together in this context would be seen as inappropriate, so they married. There is another theory which I cannot recall, but there is a thread about this in Transmundane that I started some time ago. Long story short, he never planned on having sexual relations with her.

[quote]Abraham would not be judged kindly for marying his half sister today, I don't think it would be fair for me to call him a pervert for following a perfectly accectable cultural custom of his day. I'm sure if I skimmed the Bible I could find quite a few other relationships which in today's culture would raise some eyebrows, it would hardly be fair to judge them in today's light.[/quote]

I would be interested to see if you find anything comparable to an adult having sex with a nine-year-old.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786950' date='Feb 20 2009, 11:54 PM']Perhaps you could better clarify yourself, as opposed to lecturing me on my maturity.[/quote]

Perhapse you could highlight what was unclear rather than explaining to other people what your confused understanding of my point was. I don't have a problem explaining myself if I was unclear but I'm not interested in some petty argument.



[quote]There is a theory that Mary was a consecrated virgin and that Joseph was meant to be a guardian, not a husband; of course living together in this context would be seen as inappropriate, so they married. There is another theory which I cannot recall, but there is a thread about this in Transmundane that I started some time ago. Long story short, he never planned on having sexual relations with her.[/quote]

I find this an interesting point for you to go with. If these "theories" did not pan out and Joseph did intend to have a normal marriage with her would this alter your view of Joseph?

[quote]I would be interested to see if you find anything comparable to an adult having sex with a nine-year-old.[/quote]


Sure, look at India.