Muslim Student Seeks Place To Pray Boy's Mother Fights For His Rig

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786775' date='Feb 20 2009, 10:04 PM']Would that not make him a pedophile?[/quote]


I think that depends on whether or not Aisha had reached puberty. For him to actually be a pedophile I think he would also need to have a history of needing the individual to be pre prepubescent. Whether or not Aisha had reached puberty yet is disputed, with his defenders saying she had and his detractors saying she had not. If Muhammad was a pedophile I think is a weak argument given he remained devoted to her throughout her life and his attraction to her seemed to be irrelivant to her age and the ages of his other wives. I believe most of his wives were actually fairly older.

If Muhammad had some sort of habit of only marying young girls I would consider that a fair charge, given the cultural and political dimensions of his marriage to her (firming up his relationship between him and her father Abu Bakr), the independence of his affection to her to her age, and the ages of his other wives I don't think it is fair.

It is a nice flashpoint given contemporary norms, however it is somewhat rude.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1786792' date='Feb 20 2009, 09:15 PM']I think that depends on whether or not Aisha had reached puberty.[/quote]

This is a bit ridiculous. If a child reached puberty at age twelve, it would be okay to have sexual relations with her, simply because she had hit puberty?

[quote]For him to actually be a pedophile I think he would also need to have a history of needing the individual to be pre prepubescent.[/quote]

So a man would have to have sex with more than one child before he can be labeled a pedophile? That is like saying you have to murder more than one person to be called a murderer.

[quote]If Muhammad was a pedophile I think is a weak argument given he remained devoted to her throughout her life and his attraction to her seemed to be irrelivant to her age and the ages of his other wives. I believe most of his wives were actually fairly older.[/quote]

His "affections" for the girl do not justify having sex with her.

[quote]It is a nice flashpoint given contemporary norms, however it is somewhat rude.[/quote]

Shame on me for criticizing a man who had sex with a child.

[BG45]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786819' date='Feb 20 2009, 10:30 PM']Shame on me for criticizing a man who had sex with a child.[/quote]

Pesky facts like Muhammad having sex with a child tend to be a constant problem with the Mohammed/child wife debate. Nine was a bit young, even for the days of 12-13 year old marriage and childbirth.

As to the OP, I can see the mother's point to an extent. As many have said before; it's easy to see both sides.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786728' date='Feb 20 2009, 08:21 PM']I thought he had sexual relations with a nine-year-old.[/quote]

mohammad had sexual relations with a 9 year old? what a perve!

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1786857' date='Feb 20 2009, 09:54 PM']mohammad had sexual relations with a 9 year old? what a perve![/quote]

According to Hassan, since Muhammad only had sexual relations with [b]one[/b] child, he is not considered a pedophile.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786819' date='Feb 20 2009, 10:30 PM']This is a bit ridiculous. If a child reached puberty at age twelve, it would be okay to have sexual relations with her, simply because she had hit puberty?[/quote]

I don't know. In contemporary western culture it would not, however the age differences and age of the woman, amongst numerous other standards, have shifted considerably over time.


[quote]So a man would have to have sex with more than one child before he can be labeled a pedophile? That is like saying you have to murder more than one person to be called a murderer.[/quote]

I would suggust you reread what I said if that is what you took from it.

[quote]His "affections" for the girl do not justify having sex with her.[/quote]

ok, in both this and your previous point you either failed to understand what I was saying or are simply trying to contort my point so you can have a nice "gotcha" line. If it's the former then I hope you go back and read more carefully, if the latter then a bit more maturity would be nice.

[quote]Shame on me for criticizing a man who had sex with a child.[/quote]


I doubt you would appreciate me calling Joseph a dirty old man for planning to have sexual relations with the considerably younger Mary. He would be by todays cultural norms, in his context this was perfectly normal. Abraham would not be judged kindly for marying his half sister today, I don't think it would be fair for me to call him a pervert for following a perfectly accectable cultural custom of his day. I'm sure if I skimmed the Bible I could find quite a few other relationships which in today's culture would raise some eyebrows, it would hardly be fair to judge them in today's light.

[CatherineM]

I was 5'4" when I was 9 years old. I wonder if I could have taken him if he'd tried something with me.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786912' date='Feb 20 2009, 11:38 PM']According to Hassan, since Muhammad only had sexual relations with [b]one[/b] child, he is not considered a pedophile.[/quote]

Let's not pretend to be obtuse. I will try to not mischaracterize your point and would appreciate the same courtesy

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1786930' date='Feb 20 2009, 10:44 PM']ok, in both this and your previous point you either failed to understand what I was saying or are simply trying to contort my point so you can have a nice "gotcha" line. If it's the former then I hope you go back and read more carefully, if the latter then a bit more maturity would be nice.[/quote]

Perhaps you could better clarify yourself, as opposed to lecturing me on my maturity.

[quote]I doubt you would appreciate me calling Joseph a dirty old man for planning to have sexual relations with the considerably younger Mary.[/quote]

There is a theory that Mary was a consecrated virgin and that Joseph was meant to be a guardian, not a husband; of course living together in this context would be seen as inappropriate, so they married. There is another theory which I cannot recall, but there is a thread about this in Transmundane that I started some time ago. Long story short, he never planned on having sexual relations with her.

[quote]Abraham would not be judged kindly for marying his half sister today, I don't think it would be fair for me to call him a pervert for following a perfectly accectable cultural custom of his day. I'm sure if I skimmed the Bible I could find quite a few other relationships which in today's culture would raise some eyebrows, it would hardly be fair to judge them in today's light.[/quote]

I would be interested to see if you find anything comparable to an adult having sex with a nine-year-old.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786950' date='Feb 20 2009, 11:54 PM']Perhaps you could better clarify yourself, as opposed to lecturing me on my maturity.[/quote]

Perhapse you could highlight what was unclear rather than explaining to other people what your confused understanding of my point was. I don't have a problem explaining myself if I was unclear but I'm not interested in some petty argument.



[quote]There is a theory that Mary was a consecrated virgin and that Joseph was meant to be a guardian, not a husband; of course living together in this context would be seen as inappropriate, so they married. There is another theory which I cannot recall, but there is a thread about this in Transmundane that I started some time ago. Long story short, he never planned on having sexual relations with her.[/quote]

I find this an interesting point for you to go with. If these "theories" did not pan out and Joseph did intend to have a normal marriage with her would this alter your view of Joseph?

[quote]I would be interested to see if you find anything comparable to an adult having sex with a nine-year-old.[/quote]


Sure, look at India.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1786971' date='Feb 20 2009, 11:03 PM']Perhapse you could highlight what was unclear rather than explaining to other people what your confused understanding of my point was. I don't have a problem explaining myself if I was unclear but I'm not interested in some petty argument.[/quote]

Are you trying to dance in circles with me?

[b]For him to actually be a pedophile I think he would also need to have a history of needing the individual to be pre prepubescent.[/b]

That quote makes it rather clear that you are excusing him from pedophilia because he had no prior history of having sex with young girls.

[quote]If these "theories" did not pan out and Joseph did intend to have a normal marriage with her would this alter your view of Joseph?[/quote]

I actually believe in the theory I previously mentioned. I am not going to discuss it further here, if you want I will go to that thread and pull up some of the great responses that really solidify it.

[quote]Sure, look at India.[/quote]

I was talking about [b]in the Bible[/b], which you brought up. I am curious if you can find any cases in the Bible that are comparable to (as in, as equally immoral as) Muhammad's having sex with a nine-year-old.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1787003' date='Feb 21 2009, 12:26 AM']Are you trying to dance in circles with me?

[b]For him to actually be a pedophile I think he would also need to have a history of needing the individual to be pre prepubescent.[/b]

That quote makes it rather clear that you are excusing him from pedophilia because he had no prior history of having sex with young girls.[/quote]

I would think given all the distinctions here between the sin of homosexual acts and simply being a homosexual you would get this. If Aisha was prepubescent then that certianly would have been a pedophilic act, the question of whether Muhammad had the psychological disorder is different and his history is important.

Ultimatly I think you are overstepping given how little we "know" about the historical Muhammad or even considering the actual texts. If Aisha was pubescent then no, Muhammad was not in any was a pedophile. If you feel she was to young then that is a seperate matter.


[quote]I actually believe in the theory I previously mentioned. I am not going to discuss it further here, if you want I will go to that thread and pull up some of the great responses that really solidify it.[/quote]

It is a very fair question given your oppinions of Muhammad and your question below. If Joseph intended to have sexual relations with Mary, before he was visited by an angel, would this change your oppinion of him?



[quote]I was talking about [b]in the Bible[/b], which you brought up. I am curious if you can find any cases in the Bible that are comparable to (as in, as equally immoral as) Muhammad's having sex with a nine-year-old.[/quote]


Lot having sex wth his daughters after they got him drunk? I don't know what you mean by comparable in terms of "equally immoral" Does that Catholic Church have a defintion of how old a woman must be for her to get married?

Edited February 21, 2009 by Hassan

[Hassan]

I'd like to be clear, before more of my views are explained, I would not defend such a relationship today. However in the case of ancient cultures, or even contemporary cultures today like some parts of Hindi India, it is not fair to judge individuals who find themselves in that cultural context.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1787026' date='Feb 21 2009, 12:43 AM']I'd like to be clear, before more of my views are explained, I would not defend such a relationship today. However in the case of ancient cultures, or even contemporary cultures today like some parts of Hindi India, it is not fair to judge individuals who find themselves in that cultural context.[/quote]


bULL.

ANY sex between a 9 year old child and a grown man is rape, I don't care what time period or culture you discuss.

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1787031' date='Feb 21 2009, 12:49 AM']bULL.

ANY sex between a 9 year old child and a grown man is rape, I don't care what time period or culture you discuss.[/quote]


what is the cut off age?

[cmotherofpirl]

At least puberty, which would about 14-15 or so.

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1787041' date='Feb 21 2009, 12:54 AM']At least puberty, which would about 14-15 or so.[/quote]


Is the age of puberty fixed at 14-15 independent of time and enviorment?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1787018' date='Feb 20 2009, 11:39 PM']If Aisha was prepubescent then that certianly would have been a pedophilic act, the question of whether Muhammad had the psychological disorder is different and his history is important.[/quote]

Muhammad became aroused by a child. There is something inherently disordered about that.

[quote]Ultimatly I think you are overstepping given how little we "know" about the historical Muhammad or even considering the actual texts. If Aisha was pubescent then no, Muhammad was not in any was a pedophile. If you feel she was to young then that is a seperate matter.[/quote]

If [i]I[/i] feel she was too young? Hassan, I know we have our arguments, but let me be frank with you and tell you that your entire approach to this discussion is just severely, [i]severely[/i], disturbing. You are saying that if this nine-year-old had already began puberty, then this adult man was not a pedophile. Do you not understand how shockingly horrific a thing that is for you to say?

[quote]It is a very fair question given your oppinions of Muhammad and your question below. If Joseph intended to have sexual relations with Mary, before he was visited by an angel, would this change your oppinion of him?[/quote]

I never said it was not a fair question, however in my opinion it is an irrelevant question and I have already explained why.

[quote]Lot having sex wth his daughters after they got him drunk? I don't know what you mean by comparable in terms of "equally immoral" Does that Catholic Church have a defintion of how old a woman must be for her to get married?[/quote]

While Lot did have sexual relations with his daughters, it would be more appropriate to say that they had sexual relations with him - they got him drunk and tricked him because they wanted to preserve their family line. He was not aware that they were his daughters, which Scriptures make clear. Furthermore, I believe one of the daughters had said that there was no man around for one of them to marry, therefore they were certainly older than nine.

Quite different from marrying a six-year-old and then having sex with her when she was nine.


[quote name='Hassan' post='1787026' date='Feb 20 2009, 11:43 PM']I'd like to be clear, before more of my views are explained, I would not defend such a relationship today. However in the case of ancient cultures, or even contemporary cultures today like some parts of Hindi India, it is not fair to judge individuals who find themselves in that cultural context.[/quote]

This is where you get even more disturbing - yes, even more disturbing than you stating that if a girl has begun puberty, having sex with her is not considered pedophilia.

You would not defend an act of pedophilia today but would defend an act of pedophilia in the past? I think it is perfectly fair to criticize these individuals who are psychologically scarring their victims, regardless of what religion they practice or culture they are a part of. Come on, Hassan, if the news reported a story of a fifty-something-year-old-male having had sex with a nine-year-old (and perhaps having some bizarre relationship with her) you would be repulsed. I am baffled as to why you are defending Muhammad's sexual relations with a little girl.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1787050' date='Feb 21 2009, 01:02 AM']Muhammad became aroused by a child. There is something inherently disordered about that.[/quote]




[i]The analysis of over ten thousand histories in the United States and Canada by Engelmann showed that the average age at which menstruation begins (menarche) is 13.9 years. [Footnote:] The question of early maturity is not so much one of [geographic] latitudes of the immediate environment of clothing and house heating. V. Stefansson, eminent explorer, has noted that maturity takes place among the Eskimos about as early as in the south of Europe, owing to the intense heat of their igloos where the women are housed through the winter (temperature 80 or 90 degrees) and the double layer of fur clothing worn. They would seem for a large part of the year to live in a Turkish bath. "It is not rare among Eskimo women that they have their first child at at the age of twelve, and children born before the mothers were eleven have been recorded." These data are "strictly in accord with the supposition that the hotter the environment, the earlier the maturity."[/i]
[url="http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm"]http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm[/url]


Is Eskimo culture full of pedophiles?

[quote]If [i]I[/i] feel she was too young? Hassan, I know we have our arguments, but let me be frank with you and tell you that your entire approach to this discussion is just severely, [i]severely[/i], disturbing.[/quote]

You have to give some reason. Does the Church have a teaching on this?

[quote]You are saying that if this nine-year-old had already began puberty, then this adult man was not a pedophile. Do you not understand how shockingly horrific a thing that is for you to say?[/quote]

Wait now, I said that because as I have always understood it for it to be pedophilia then by definition the child had to be pre pubescent. That was intended to be simply a statement of definition not any sort of moral definition.



[quote]I never said it was not a fair question, however in my opinion it is an irrelevant question and I have already explained why.[/quote]

You asked about a comparable situation in the Bible.

How about marying your half sister?



[quote]While Lot did have sexual relations with his daughters, it would be more appropriate to say that they had sexual relations with him - they got him drunk and tricked him because they wanted to preserve their family line. He was not aware that they were his daughters, which Scriptures make clear. Furthermore, I believe one of the daughters had said that there was no man around for one of them to marry, therefore they were certainly older than nine.[/quote]

I am aware that they seduced him







[quote]You would not defend an act of pedophilia today but would defend an act of pedophilia in the past?[/quote]

I wouldn't defend it in the past either, it would factor into how I judged the individual in question.


[quote]I think it is perfectly fair to criticize these individuals who are psychologically scarring their victims, regardless of what religion they practice or culture they are a part of.[/quote]

would you likw me to apply that same standard to individuals in the Church?

[quote]Come on, Hassan, if the news reported a story of a fifty-something-year-old-male having had sex with a nine-year-old (and perhaps having some bizarre relationship with her) you would be repulsed.[/quote]

I would be repulsed with a man Josephs age being in an arranged marriage with a girl Mary's age as well. Or a man marying his half sister, or that man's half sister giveing him her slave as a wife so he could nock her up.

I do not consider Joseph or Abraham morally deranged, however, because they lived in a different cultural context and it would be unfair to expect them to be able to divorce themselves from their time and anticipate moral conclusions which would not be drawn for thousands of years.

[quote]I am baffled as to why you are defending Muhammad's sexual relations with a little girl.[/quote]

I am defending Muhammad (or Joseph or Abraham) from being judged according to standards of a culture totally distinct from his own.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Hassan

[HisChildForever]

If it was part of someone's culture to murder or cheat on their spouse, would you defend them as well?