Muslim Student Seeks Place To Pray Boy's Mother Fights For His Rig

[Hassan]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1787180' date='Feb 21 2009, 03:09 AM']Cultural norms should not apply in either case. What Abraham did was just as immoral back then as it is now. I don't believe it was God who told them to make that arrangement. The Old Testament is full of people making sinful mistakes, just because we revere Abraham does not mean we can really excuse his behavior in this case. Explain maybe but excuse, no. Same with Muhammad I would think.[/quote]

I didn't say it was not wrong, I protested against judgeing the individual. I do not feel it is fair to negatively judge an individual by the standards of a time radically different from their own

[Madame Vengier]

Justifying and excusing pedophilia. Sheesh. Could only happen in an Islam-related thread.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1787225' date='Feb 21 2009, 09:56 AM']Justifying and excusing pedophilia. Sheesh. Could only happen in an Islam-related thread.[/quote]


oh wow that was clever

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1787175' date='Feb 21 2009, 02:03 AM']Let me get this straight. You came to a thread that has drifted from its original discussion to provide an off topic lecture about how terrible it is to be off topic? Cute.[/quote]
Just learning from the best

[dominicansoul]

in a way, i believe that if muslims keep demanding prayer in public schools, they may help us get ALL prayer back in public schools...

Now, we Christians need to back this up! I know we've fought the battle for a while now, but this may be new ammo to conquer the way our public school system has literally thrown God out of the schools!

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1787164' date='Feb 21 2009, 01:45 AM']I do not consider teaching children about hell to be child abuse. if my point was unclear with that I am sorry. My point was not to demean your religion. Like with Abraham I would not consider him a bad man for what he did. My point was only that it would be unfair to him to extend our cultural norms to him, when he lived in a radically different context. The same with Muhammad.

I'd be happy to have a serious discussion about the problems with Islam, in my eyes, if I did not feel it would just turn into a Islam bash-a-fest[/quote]
well, you've already set me straight on several prejudices i had before about muslims...

but i think if you want serious discussions, you need to stop the Catholic bashing yourself...it's not fair to call us out on bashing islam, ,but then you turn around and do the same against our beliefs...

[jeffpugh]

Back up the Muslims? Sure. As soon as we get our own children on a regiment of prayers

[Hassan]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1787499' date='Feb 21 2009, 08:37 PM']but i think if you want serious discussions, you need to stop the Catholic bashing yourself[/quote]

Are you talking about something I've done here?

[dominicansoul]

no silly, other times...i misunderstood you here...

[Hassan]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1787544' date='Feb 21 2009, 09:50 PM']no silly, other times...i misunderstood you here...[/quote]


Is this recently?

[Hassan]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1787498' date='Feb 21 2009, 08:35 PM']in a way, i believe that if muslims keep demanding prayer in public schools, they may help us get ALL prayer back in public schools...

Now, we Christians need to back this up! I know we've fought the battle for a while now, but this may be new ammo to conquer the way our public school system has literally thrown God out of the schools![/quote]


There is a difference between a student being allowed to pray, which exists now. Like I said I kept the Benedictine prayers during some of high school. And the teacher leading students in prayer. I doubt you all would like the teacher leading the students in salat five times a day.

Why are secret muslim children never included in these discussions?

[HisChildForever]

Just so I do not have to bother with quote tags:

I said: [b]Do you think a nine-year-old is mature enough to consent to sex?[/b]

Hassan answered: [b]no[/b]


Therefore, why do you think it is wrong to "judge" Muhammad for having sex with a nine-year-old? Set aside culture for now, as that seems to be what you are hiding behind.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1788163' date='Feb 22 2009, 11:59 AM']Just so I do not have to bother with quote tags:

I said: [b]Do you think a nine-year-old is mature enough to consent to sex?[/b]

Hassan answered: [b]no[/b]


Therefore, why do you think it is wrong to "judge" Muhammad for having sex with a nine-year-old? Set aside culture for now, as that seems to be what you are hiding behind.[/quote]
Start it on the debate board please.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1788163' date='Feb 22 2009, 11:59 AM']Just so I do not have to bother with quote tags:

I said: [b]Do you think a nine-year-old is mature enough to consent to sex?[/b]

Hassan answered: [b]no[/b]


Therefore, why do you think it is wrong to "judge" Muhammad for having sex with a nine-year-old? Set aside culture for now, as that seems to be what you are hiding behind.[/quote]


I'm not hiding behind anything, and I don't think my position here is particularly nuanced or difficult

Let's review

For the reasons I have stated I do not believe there is evidence to establish that Muhammad had any such psychological condition. Do I believe a nine year old is psychologically or physiologically mature enough to have a sexual relationship or help maintain a family? Of course not. I say that as an individual who has the benefit of modern psychology and physiology. In a society such as, let us say, seventh century Arabia or contemporary areas of Hindi India, this is not such an obvious conclusion. There is a distinction between making a judgment about the individual and the action. If Muhammad walked up to me and asked "Hey, do you think I should marry this girl to help solidify my alliance with Abu Bakr in an arranged marriage?" I would say "No Muhammad, he's some information on developmental psychology, I understand you would be utterly oblivious to this seeing as you live in seventh century Arabia, so here you go". However seeing as marrying a woman far younger than would be acceptable today was seen as perfectly normal I do not feel it is fair to expect Muhammad to preempt one thousand and three hundred years of psychological knowledge and ethical development. Therefore I do not extend a negative judgment to him.

I extend that same courtesy to Abraham, as do you.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Hassan

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1788163' date='Feb 22 2009, 11:59 AM']Just so I do not have to bother with quote tags:

I said: [b]Do you think a nine-year-old is mature enough to consent to sex?[/b]

Hassan answered: [b]no[/b]


Therefore, why do you think it is wrong to "judge" Muhammad for having sex with a nine-year-old? Set aside culture for now, as that seems to be what you are hiding behind.[/quote]


Not only did he have sex with a 9-year old, but his followers did (and still do) it as well. They have multiple wives because Mohammed did it. They can throw one wife into the street and take another one because Mohammed did that. They launch jihad against unbelievers becuase Mohammed did it. They hate Jews and Christians because Mohammed hated them. They demean and oppress women, because Mohammed did it. This is something that has to be understood deeply about Islam: Mohammed is THE supreme model of Islamic life.