Convert Facing Death Sentence

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=lead&lang=en&length=long&idelement=&backpage=&critere=&countryname=&rowcur="]http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.ph...me=&rowcur=[/url]

[Didacus]

One of the fascinating aspects of this is even though threats are made to life and limb, the islamists cannot halt conversions to Christianity.

[HisChildForever]

[quote]In the latest hearing of a Muslim-born Egyptian’s effort to officially convert to Christianity, opposing lawyers advocated he be convicted of “apostasy,” or leaving Islam, and sentenced to death.[/quote]

I thought Islam was a peaceful religion.

[Winchester]

[img]http://www.combatkaare.com/images/islam-religion-of-peace.jpg[/img]

[CatherineM]

I see this happening in Egypt, but are other countries doing the same, through the courts? I know that people can be killed for converting, and basically no one investigates, but actual court judgments. I wonder if it is worse in Egypt because they have the Coptics there, that they feel more threatened.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1792355' date='Feb 27 2009, 09:51 AM']One of the fascinating aspects of this is even though threats are made to life and limb, the islamists cannot halt conversions to Christianity.[/quote]


According to Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ, who specializes in the Middle East, the greatest number of converts to Christianity are coming from Muslims in predominately Muslim parts of the worlds. He said statistics show they are "in the thousands" by the year. And I bet they make excellent Christians, too.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1792406' date='Feb 27 2009, 12:25 PM']I thought Islam was a peaceful religion.[/quote]


Well, of course it is. And anyone who says it isn't must be an Islamophobe, a hate-mongerer, and a bigot. Just ignore the facts that the news reports bring us from around the world on a daily basis and think positive.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1792786' date='Feb 27 2009, 08:24 PM']Well, of course it is. And anyone who says it isn't must be an Islamophobe, a hate-mongerer, and a bigot. Just ignore the facts that the news reports bring us from around the world on a daily basis and think positive. [/quote]

[Hassan]

I doubt you all would appreciate the same conclusion with regards to the Church's past dealings with heretics.

Obviously the international community needs to step in. Cheep shots won't help though.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1792893' date='Feb 27 2009, 10:25 PM']I doubt you all would appreciate the same conclusion with regards to the Church's past dealings with heretics.

Obviously the international community needs to step in. Cheep shots won't help though.[/quote]

Countries routinely slaughtered people they disagreed with several hundred years ago, but [i]most[/i] nations are a bit more civilized now. Egypt doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks, because Islam is the law of the land, and personal freedoms we take for granted simply do not and will not exist under their law.

[Winchester]

Countries still put down rebellions, which is what heresy was at the time.

One could make the argument for the muslim countries, as well.

Here's the fact: Without Christ there is no peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. This is the Catholic argument. Quit trying to work outside of that argument.

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1792991' date='Feb 27 2009, 11:16 PM']Countries routinely slaughtered people they disagreed with several hundred years ago, but [i]most[/i] nations are a bit more civilized now.[/quote]

I'm not talking about the actions of countries but the teachings of your Church. I could point to Thomas Aquinas as a saint, angelic doctor, and arguable single most important theologian in your Church advocating rulers putting unrepetant heretics to dath and then draw the same conclusion "ah! Here I thought Christianity was a peaceful religion!" I don't think that would be fair though and neither are the cheep shots here.

[quote]Egypt doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks[/quote]

There is strong data to show that is not the case.
[quote]because Islam is the law of the land[/quote]

If you mean the law of Egypt is Sharia then that is not the case.

[quote]and personal freedoms we take for granted simply do not and will not exist under their law.[/quote]
Unfortunatly that is true.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1793036' date='Feb 27 2009, 11:41 PM']Countries still put down rebellions, which is what heresy was at the time.

One could make the argument for the muslim countries, as well.[/quote]

how so?

[quote]Here's the fact: Without Christ there is no peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. This is the Catholic argument. Quit trying to work outside of that argument.[/quote]


Islam is not a religion of peace because they don't have Christ?

I can't speak to that. I don't think Islam is a religion of peace in the same sense of Christianity. But within the framework of the different viariats of Islam one can find peaceful versions. Of course you can find agressive, expansionist versions as well. I think the latter has more historical legitimacy but it can me tricky. imo

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1793080' date='Feb 27 2009, 10:57 PM']how so?[/quote]
Church and state were so tied together that denial of the Church was a threat to the state. Generally speaking.

In specific, speaking of Cathars--the denial of taking oaths threatened the fabric of society.

[quote]Islam is not a religion of peace because they don't have Christ?

I can't speak to that. I don't think Islam is a religion of peace in the same sense of Christianity. But within the framework of the different viariats of Islam one can find peaceful versions. Of course you can find agressive, expansionist versions as well. I think the latter has more historical legitimacy but it can me tricky. imo[/quote]
We believe that without Christ, there is no peace. It's our argument, not yours so you needn't accept it and I can't convince you to. It has naught to do with physical violence and war. Atheist vegan pacifists aren't at peace, in this sense. With all their farting, you would think it obvious, but hey...

From a secular perspective, it's clear Mohammedanism is a greater threat to modern society than Christianity, in their current forms. Christianity is no longer a world power. It has influence from the past that is fading quickly. Those who are abandoning it are weak and spineless and generally no match for muslims.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1793036' date='Feb 27 2009, 11:41 PM']Here's the fact: Without Christ there is no peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. This is the Catholic argument. Quit trying to work outside of that argument.[/quote]


"Maybe standing so long is making you cranky." Funny how you justify yourself insulting others who debate with Hassan, but it's okay for you to do it.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1793080' date='Feb 27 2009, 11:57 PM']how so?




Islam is not a religion of peace because they don't have Christ?

I can't speak to that. I don't think Islam is a religion of peace in the same sense of Christianity. But within the framework of the different viariats of Islam one can find peaceful versions. Of course you can find agressive, expansionist versions as well. I think the latter has more historical legitimacy but it can me tricky. imo[/quote]

Hassan, pardon me if I'm not correct here, but don't extremist muslims follow the original translation of Koran. And the other 98% of muslims (most of whom are good people) follow the watered down version of the Koran. If the original is deviated from that makes me question the validity of the religion's argument. I mean look at Christianity. Christianity. especially Rome Sweet Home (Catholicism) has followed the original bible for 2000 years. Yes, there are heretical groups, and yes there are weird translations of the bible. But at the same time, Christianity has always been a religion of radical peace, from its very beginnings. Does this mean that most muslims are bad? No, because God can still work through their religion. In fact I believe and the Church teaches that a loving muslim who follows the natural law on his heart has more of a chance of getting into heaven than a lax Catholic who has been taught the faith.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1793529' date='Feb 28 2009, 09:15 AM']"Maybe standing so long is making you cranky." Funny how you justify yourself insulting others who debate with Hassan, but it's okay for you to do it.[/quote]
I was joking with you, and my comment about trying to work outside of the Catholic argument was for everyone, myself included. Take a breather, you're turning on your own.

[quote name='Winchester' post='1792632' date='Feb 27 2009, 04:36 PM'][img]http://spf.fotolog.com/photo/47/0/90/peloura/Copia_de_malos_venger_1210355123318.jpg[/img]
Talk to the hand![/quote]
Really. How is that not hilarious?

Edited February 28, 2009 by Winchester

[Didacus]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1792783' date='Feb 27 2009, 09:21 PM']According to Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ, who specializes in the Middle East, the greatest number of converts to Christianity are coming from Muslims in predominately Muslim parts of the worlds. He said statistics show they are "in the thousands" by the year. And I bet they make excellent Christians, too.[/quote]

I have no doubt their devotion is far deeper than the average catholic on this side of the world. Both fortunately, and unfortunately.

[Hassan]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1793535' date='Feb 28 2009, 11:07 AM']Hassan, pardon me if I'm not correct here, but don't extremist muslims follow the original translation of Koran. And the other 98% of muslims (most of whom are good people) follow the watered down version of the Koran. If the original is deviated from that makes me question the validity of the religion's argument. I mean look at Christianity. Christianity. especially Rome Sweet Home (Catholicism) has followed the original bible for 2000 years. Yes, there are heretical groups, and yes there are weird translations of the bible. But at the same time, Christianity has always been a religion of radical peace, from its very beginnings. Does this mean that most muslims are bad? No, because God can still work through their religion. In fact I believe and the Church teaches that a loving muslim who follows the natural law on his heart has more of a chance of getting into heaven than a lax Catholic who has been taught the faith.[/quote]


The Arabic is the same for all the Qur'ans. As most Muslims don't speak Arabic they can use different translations which can have some differences amongst them, particularly in the included commentary. Kahn is the most common translation and the cheepest because the Saudi's subsidise is, Maulana Muhammad Ali's is used by a certian sect from Pakistan and reflects his more naturalized religion, Muhammad Asad's is more rationalistic etc. In thoses cases while there may be some small differences in translation the commentary is the biggest difference amongst them.

The movement of Muslim terrorist groups generally has nothing to do with what version of the Qur'an they follow. Unlike what some here would have you beleive the rise of Muslim terrorist groups, like most terrorist groups, is a complex phenomena and much more is involved than theological disagreements. The individuals socio economic class, nationalist, personal history etc all play an important role. More importantly there is no one homogenous group that is "the extremists". If you want to understand the extreamism of groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, at least traditionally, you would need to look at Sayyed Qutb's "Milestones". In that case his is a mixture of Islam and Leninism, if you want to understand Muslims extreamism in Chechnya you would need to look at the whole long bloody conflict and it's interaction with nationalism.

The reason I often put "the extremists" in quotes is not because I'm trying to deney that extremists exist, but because one groups of "the extremists" Muslims does not exist. Muslim terrorism is not homogenous nor are the all after the same goal.

Modern Extremists are not traditionalist Muslims, despite what some may claim. That is not to say Classical Islam was or was not a peaceful religion, but simply that groups like Al Quaida are not traditionalist Muslims.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1793529' date='Feb 28 2009, 10:15 AM']"Maybe standing so long is making you cranky." Funny how you justify yourself insulting others who debate with Hassan, but it's okay for you to do it.[/quote]

lol, that's not an insult. He simply asked me to not venture outside a certain set of parameters. I might find his request (at worst) unreasonable, but not insulting.