Convert Facing Death Sentence

[Winchester]

This is a perfect example of why not to go outside the Catholic argument. Proving Islamofascists are or are not traditional is nigh impossible. There will always be an argument against it. Remain within the Catholic argument and you win, quick and easy and faithfully. Go outside it, and you start typing in caps and large fonts because it's frustrating.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1793616' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:31 PM']This is a perfect example of why not to go outside the Catholic argument. Proving Islamofascists are or are not traditional is nigh impossible. There will always be an argument against it. Remain within the Catholic argument and you win, quick and easy and faithfully. Go outside it, and you start typing in caps and large fonts because it's frustrating.[/quote]


You win if the Catholic argument is sound. I mean if you want to say without Christ there is not peace, Islam does not have Christ, therefore Islam does not have peace that's just fine with me (it's even deductively valid probably) so long as we admit that is not applicable outside of the Catholic context and only sound if Catholicism is true.

You can't prove that the "Islamofascists" (a term I would reject) are in the tradition of "true" Islam (whatever that means) but if you look at the body of Islamic fiqh and simply mean the common opinion of Islamic jurists through the years than we can make limited judgments.

[mortify]

All these threads about Islam are all mistaken and skewed... Islam is really a peaceful religion, really it is...

[Hassan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1793629' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:55 PM']All these threads about Islam are all mistaken and skewed... Islam is really a peaceful religion, really it is...[/quote]
your mom's a peaceful religion



oh

snap

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1793620' date='Feb 28 2009, 01:39 PM']You can't prove that the "Islamofascists" (a term I would reject) are in the tradition of "true" Islam (whatever that means)[/quote]

Can you please explain the basis for this statement?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1793620' date='Feb 28 2009, 01:39 PM']You can't prove that the "Islamofascists" (a term I would reject) are in the tradition of "true" Islam (whatever that means) but if you look at the body of Islamic fiqh and simply mean the common opinion of Islamic jurists through the years than we can make limited judgments.[/quote]
I [i]might [/i]be able to prove it, but I'm not interested enough. Theologically, I reject Mahomet and his unique teachings (those that match Catholicism are not his) so everything else is moot. If Islam resulted in glorious human freedom and respect, it would still be wrong. We don't judge by outcome; we are not pragmatists. Islam does not result in those things, though, and we know it. Really, no human endeavour (and religion is executed by humans--in both senses of the word) results in that. Seen in this light, one may reject Catholicism, whose members have often fallen short of the goal and will continue to so long as they are in this fallen world.

Arguing this stuff is academic. Those Islamists who are terrorists are a problem. [i]They [/i]must be destroyed and their religion must be pacified even if it means destroying it (and if it really offended Islam, they would be marginalized just like the stupid hicks burning crosses at their asinine southern frat parties). I am sick of it. If they bombed mecca, I wouldn't be outraged. This isn't [s]neccessarily [/s]moral, but I am sick and tired of this religion; it has been a problem since it began and I'm not an adherent so I don't [i]care [/i]if it suddenly disappears. I have a family and I don't want to see them suffer because of these whining durka durkas anymore. I don't care if they're offended--I want them to shut up, sell me oil and quit pretending they're not utterly selfish hypocrites who use their religion like the excuse every other religious adherent (yours truly included) does.

There. Honesty.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1793662' date='Feb 28 2009, 03:37 PM']Can you please explain the basis for this statement?[/quote]


I just mean if Muslims want to point to some supra historical metaphysical thing that is "Islam" and hold as a matter of faith what "true" Islam is then no one can really say they are wrong. That doesn't mean there are any grounds for suposing they are right.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1793615' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:31 PM']lol, that's not an insult. He simply asked me to not venture outside a certain set of parameters. I might find his request (at worst) unreasonable, but not insulting.[/quote]

You might find this shocking to believe, but I was not referring to YOU, Hassan. My comments do not revolve around you. Again: failure. to. comprehend.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1793562' date='Feb 28 2009, 01:05 PM']I was joking with you, and my comment about trying to work outside of the Catholic argument was for everyone, myself included. Take a breather, you're turning on your own.[/quote]

Really, Win? Are you one of my own? Because you have never once--not once--given me than impression.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your unique sense of humor.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1793598' date='Feb 28 2009, 01:44 PM']I have no doubt their devotion is far deeper than the average catholic on this side of the world. Both fortunately, and unfortunately.[/quote]


Exactly. And for this reason, like many other non-western cultures, they are interiorly primed for Christianity. Not sure if this is solely because of their culture or partly Islamic influence. Probably some of both.

[CatherineM]

I have always believed that if Islam is to be converted, it will take Mary's intervention. They have a respect for her. She is mentioned in the Qur'an more than she is in the New Testament. I don't think her choice of Fatima was a coincidence either. With the persecution Islamic converts must face, their faith has got to be almost visible with its intensity.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1794261' date='Mar 1 2009, 11:10 AM']Really, Win? Are you one of my own? Because you have never once--not once--given me than impression.[/quote]
My apologies, I was given to understand you were Catholic.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1794260' date='Mar 1 2009, 12:09 PM']You might find this shocking to believe, but I was not referring to YOU, Hassan. My comments do not revolve around you. Again: failure. to. comprehend.[/quote]


Honestly I don't know what you were trying to say. You butted into a conversation I was having with Winchester to say ""[i]Maybe standing so long is making you cranky." Funny how you justify yourself insulting others who debate with Hassan, but it's okay for you to do it.[/i]"

That's something of a confused mess that I can't make sense of.

You feel it's funny how Winchester justifies himself inculting others who debate me but he feels it's ok for him to do"it"?

[Hassan]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1794334' date='Mar 1 2009, 04:13 PM']I have always believed that if Islam is to be converted, it will take Mary's intervention. They have a respect for her. She is mentioned in the Qur'an more than she is in the New Testament. I don't think her choice of Fatima was a coincidence either. With the persecution Islamic converts must face, their faith has got to be almost visible with its intensity.[/quote]


I think it looks like it's going the other way. I mean you have an increasingly religious Islamic world vs. apathetic Christian world. Groosly oversimplified. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing to be honest. I guess it depends on how that Islam identifies itself. I mean Classical Islam is done right? Not just the Caliph but a lot of the old jurists rulings no longer apply in the modern world and there are a lot of great Muslim reformers. On the other hand there is still a lot force with a rather barbaric Talibanism. Who knows.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1794837' date='Mar 1 2009, 11:45 PM']Honestly I don't know what you were trying to say. You butted into a conversation I was having with Winchester to say ""[i]Maybe standing so long is making you cranky." Funny how you justify yourself insulting others who debate with Hassan, but it's okay for you to do it.[/i]"

That's something of a confused mess that I can't make sense of.

You feel it's funny how Winchester justifies himself inculting others who debate me but he feels it's ok for him to do"it"?[/quote]
I was joking with her about the tack in her recent posts, which indicated a higher than normal irritation with you. It didn't go over well.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1792991' date='Feb 27 2009, 11:16 PM']Countries routinely slaughtered people they disagreed with several hundred years ago, but [i]most[/i] nations are a bit more civilized now. Egypt doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks, because Islam is the law of the land, and personal freedoms we take for granted simply do not and will not exist under their law.[/quote]


[i]Civilization[/i] if that is what we now call modernism , is overrated. We should be upset because this is a Chirstian being martyred for his Faith, we should be proud of him, we should pray for him.

To Hassan, I make no apologies for the way Catholicsism dealt with other religions. We are right, they are wrong. I find it funney that people who obvously have Faith are so loathe to say that now.

Yes I'm okay with a Crusade.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901500' date='Jun 25 2009, 05:44 PM'][i]Civilization[/i] if that is what we now call modernism , is overrated. We should be upset because
To Hassan, I make no apologies for the way Catholicsism dealt with other religions. We are right, they are wrong. I find it funney that people who obvously have Faith are so loathe to say that now.[/quote]


I', going to take Chesterton's advise to heart and not argue with you about this, I do find it sad that you are really that closed minded.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1901571' date='Jun 25 2009, 08:46 PM']I', going to take Chesterton's advise to heart and not argue with you about this, I do find it sad that you are really that closed minded.[/quote]


I'm really not close minded at all. I am simply sick of people acting as if we should apologize for being Catholic. I believe the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, headed by the Vicar of Christ and Guided by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who believes that, should not feel the least bit sorry for anything the [i]Church[/i] has done. ( Individual members of the Church are just as lible to be peices of garbage as anyone else.) How can you be sorry for the actions taken by the Church as directed by God? That doesn't make me close minded, it makes me convicted.

I believe Islam is a developed form of Arianism, unlike many I have no problem believing that Mohammed was spoken to by an angel, I just believe it was a Fallen Angel. I believe Mohammed was probably a dupe of Satan, not necessarly a willing participant, but working for him none- the-less. I do not doubt the sincerity of muslims and their desire to serve God. I do believe they are Wrong.


You will find I am far more tolerant of extremist than almost anyone you'll meet. The Taliban is not out of line, the Taliban is simply full of actual moslems fighting to preserve their faith and way of life. That earns them my respect, even while it makes them my enemy. They at least are an enemy I can sit down to a cup of coffee with and trust to be honest about there views.


Modernism is an infection, it infects Islam now just as it infects Christianity, it waters down Faith by apathy and relativism. I do not expect an apology fom Osama ben Laden for doing what he believes is right.


Please do not expect an apology from the Church or Her members for doing what was/is right.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901630' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:42 PM']I'm really not close minded at all. I am simply sick of people acting as if we should apologize for being Catholic. I believe the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, headed by the Vicar of Christ and Guided by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who believes that, should not feel the least bit sorry for anything the [i]Church[/i] has done. ( Individual members of the Church are just as lible to be peices of garbage as anyone else.) How can you be sorry for the actions taken by the Church as directed by God? That doesn't make me close minded, it makes me convicted.[/quote]

Then I find it unfortunate that your conviction is that unshakable.

[quote]I believe Islam is a developed form of Arianism, unlike many I have no problem believing that Mohammed was spoken to by an angel, I just believe it was a Fallen Angel. I believe Mohammed was probably a dupe of Satan, not necessarly a willing participant, but working for him none- the-less. I do not doubt the sincerity of muslims and their desire to serve God. I do believe they are Wrong.[/quote]


ok


[quote]You will find I am far more tolerant of extremist than almost anyone you'll meet. The Taliban is not out of line, the Taliban is simply full of actual moslems fighting to preserve their faith and way of life. That earns them my respect, even while it makes them my enemy. They at least are an enemy I can sit down to a cup of coffee with and trust to be honest about there views.[/quote]


No, they are (to the extent that they can be accurately described as a coherent group, which is the biggest flaw in your claim) a proxy of the Pakistani army largely made up of disgruntled former tenants of south Asian refugee camps. Or at least they used to be. Now they are also xenophobes fighting to keep foreigners out of their tribal areas, drug runners, nutty American converts, proxy forces of Afghan warlords etc. There is no single "Taliban".


[quote]Modernism is an infection, it infects Islam now just as it infects Christianity, it waters down Faith by apathy and relativism. I do not expect an apology fom Osama ben Laden for doing what he believes is right.[/quote]


I'd like an apology from him for being a murderous ****


[quote]Please do not expect an apology from the Church or Her members for doing what was/is right.[/quote]

I would never ask any to apologize for doing the right thing. I guess our disput settles on what is right.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1901639' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:53 PM']Then I find it unfortunate that your conviction is that unshakable.

[color="#2E8B57"] That is fair. I can totally understand why you would feel it so.[/color]


ok





No, they are (to the extent that they can be accurately described as a coherent group, which is the biggest flaw in your claim) a proxy of the Pakistani army largely made up of disgruntled former tenants of south Asian refugee camps. Or at least they used to be. Now they are also xenophobes fighting to keep foreigners out of their tribal areas, drug runners, nutty American converts, proxy forces of Afghan warlords etc. There is no single "Taliban".
[color="#2E8B57"]I realize the Taliban are not overly coherent, but You refered to them as a unified group up above and I saw no reason to go into it that deeply. But since we're there now, THe Talaban have many motivations but do you really deny that they are sincely trying to live under Islamic law, and live in what they believe to be a rightous society? Do you really believe that even the xenophobles are not sincere?[/color]




I'd like an apology from him for being a murderous ****


[color="#2E8B57"] Whose intolerant now?[/color]

I would never ask any to apologize for doing the right thing. I guess our disput settles on what is right.

[color="#2E8B57"]I would agree. I think though it also settles ont he nature of Faith, if you really believe your Faith is right, why would you bend, if you don't really believe it is right, why would you waste your time?[/color][/quote]