Latin Mass

[Veridicus]

I wish the priest would turn around in the NO mass. I think this would re-emphasize the centrality of the Eucharist as the high point of the Mass rather than so elevating the community-orientation of many NO Masses. When I was in Rome last summer, went to Mass at Santa Maria Maggiore for a NO Mass in Italian; there was no central altar in that side chapel so the Eucharistic Liturgy HAD to be ad orientum...it was beautiful.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Veridicus

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1817432' date='Mar 27 2009, 02:26 AM']I wish the priest would turn around in the NO mass. I think this would re-emphasize the centrality of the Eucharist as the high point of the Mass rather than so elevating the community-orientation of many NO Masses.[/quote]

[elizabeth09]

?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='elizabeth09' post='1818831' date='Mar 28 2009, 05:05 PM']?[/quote]
?

[KnightofChrist]

¿

[Socrates]

There is [i]nothing[/i] in any Vatican II document calling for the priest to face the people.
And (I'd have to find the document - perhaps Al or someone could help me), Latin was specifically given the pride of place in the liturgy.

At our parish, even the NO mass is now said [i]ad orientum[/i], and all of the unchanging parts said in Latin (as our priest says "in accord with Vatican II").

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819879' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:42 PM']There is [i]nothing[/i] in any Vatican II document calling for the priest to face the people.
And (I'd have to find the document - perhaps Al or someone could help me), Latin was specifically given the pride of place in the liturgy.

At our parish, even the NO mass is now said [i]ad orientum[/i], and all of the unchanging parts said in Latin (as our priest says "in accord with Vatican II").[/quote]
That's really interesting. I would have assumed it was in the GIRM or something like that.
How come priests always face the congregation if it doesn't specifically say to do so anywhere?

[Aloysius]

Actually, the GIRM presumes an ad orientum position with a freestanding altar (ie an altar not connected to the wall)... and, in fact, the priest is told to face the people MORE times in the Extraordinary Form than in the Ordinary Form. In the ordinary form, the priest is told to face the people at Orate Fratres (Pray, brethren) (GIRM 146), the sign of peace (GIRM 154), the Ecce Agnus Dei (Behold the Lamb of God) (GIRM 157), the post-communion prayer (GIRM 165), and the deacon or priest is told to face the people for the Ite Missa Est (The Mass has ended) (GIRM 185)

this is not to say that the versus populum position is not approved (It is, by GIRM 299), it certainly is, but it is still not presumed in the General Instruction. now, often GIRM 299 is used to say that the versus populum position is preferred... not so! Fr. Z went on the case in the Latin, for an explanation of what GIRM # 299 really says: [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2006/04/what-does-girm-299-really-say/"]http://wdtprs.com/blog/2006/04/what-does-g...299-really-say/[/url]
[quote]GIRM 299: The main altar should be built separated from the wall, which is useful wherever it is possible, so that it can be easily walked around and a celebration toward the people [b]can[/b] be carried out.[/quote]

there are many reasons a freestanding altar may be preferred, especially relating to going around the altar when it is initially being consecrated and in the incensing of the altar; one reason is that it allows for the versus populum OR ad orientem position, another reason is that that's the way altars are in Rome, in the center of the cross-shaped church (which is what would be envisioned when freestanding altars are suggested, because the Altar should be in the center of the cross-shaped church building, but with fan-shaped churches popping up everywhere, the freestanding altar becomes much more pointless)

Soc, that would be the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy:

[quote][b]36[/b]. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

[b]54[/b]. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and "the common prayer," but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.[/quote]

your priest is following exactly what the Council intended. masses that are all in the vernacular, while they have been permitted by the competent authorities, are against what Vatican II said and intended.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819879' date='Mar 30 2009, 01:42 AM']At our parish, even the NO mass is now said [i]ad orientum[/i], and all of the unchanging parts said in Latin (as our priest says "in accord with Vatican II").[/quote]
I must admit that I'm a bit jealous.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819879' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:42 PM']There is [i]nothing[/i] in any Vatican II document calling for the priest to face the people.
And (I'd have to find the document - perhaps Al or someone could help me), Latin was specifically given the pride of place in the liturgy.

At our parish, even the NO mass is now said [i]ad orientum[/i], and all of the unchanging parts said in Latin (as our priest says "in accord with Vatican II").[/quote]

Oh my Lord...where do you live? I'm moving there...

[Veridicus]

On that note; I am getting married this summer and have been considering asking the priest to face ad orientum during the Eucharistic Liturgy of our NO Nuptial Mass. I am really close to the priest and I know he would actually prefer to say Masses ad orientum at his own parish if there weren't politics and whatnot to influence those decisions. Is it within my right to ask him to do this or would that be presumptive? My fiancee is on board with me for this, but we "don't want to make a scene" or anything. We are already having some of the prayers in Latin and whatnot as it is. It is OUR Nuptial Mass afterall... What do you guys think about my requesting ad orientum?

[elizabeth09]

Here is one of the Traditional Latin Mass.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE[/url]

Feast of the Sacred Heart

It is 1:03:14

[Veridicus]

[quote name='elizabeth09' post='1820702' date='Mar 30 2009, 08:03 PM']Here is one of the Traditional Latin Mass.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE[/url]

Feast of the Sacred Heart

It is 1:03:14[/quote]

Why do both priests at the altar offer the chalice up at 31:34...is that like Tridentine concelebration or something?

[MissyP89]

Just give me Jesus. He's all I want, and really, I have need for nothing else. (That does mean I'll gladly go to a valid Mass in Klingon. )

[jon2004]

I'm lucky, I can go to an EF only 40 min. away now, instead of the hour and a half before. I converted from protestantism, and the OF is way to close to what I left behind for me to be comfortable. In and of itself I have no problem with it, I have been to really great NO masses, and I have been to some that made me long for the respect of the Presbyterian church. I like the latin because it makes me feel really catholic.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='jon2004' post='1822749' date='Apr 2 2009, 02:25 PM']I'm lucky, I can go to an EF only 40 min. away now, instead of the hour and a half before. I converted from protestantism, and the OF is way to close to what I left behind for me to be comfortable. In and of itself I have no problem with it, I have been to really great NO masses, and I have been to some that made me long for the respect of the Presbyterian church. I like the latin because it makes me feel really catholic.[/quote]
Werd. I can empathise...

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1820718' date='Mar 30 2009, 09:25 PM']Why do both priests at the altar offer the chalice up at 31:34...is that like Tridentine concelebration or something?[/quote]

The only example of concelebration in the extraordinary form is at the ordination of priests and bishops. What you see in the video is the deacon helping the priest elevate the chalice at the Offertory.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1820718' date='Mar 30 2009, 09:25 PM']Why do both priests at the altar offer the chalice up at 31:34...is that like Tridentine concelebration or something?[/quote]I have been told that in the Extraordinary Form, when it was said frequently, it was possible to have several different Priests at different altars saying the Holy Mass. The implication being that it was not done together.

In the video, at 31:34, I would [i]assume[/i] the minister is helping the celebrant Priest...

Edited April 2, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Thomist-in-Training]

*Edit: Sorry, double post. Sorry my post below is so long too. Read it if you're interested though, it's important.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Thomist-in-Training

[Thomist-in-Training]

[font="Arial"]I didn't read all of it, but I'm pretty sure I agree w/everything Aloysius said.

A very important point to remember:
The Novus Ordo or "ordinary form" which can be said in English or Latin is not just a translation of the Tridentine Mass, TLM or "extraordinary form." The Tridentine Mass is never said in English, except the readings. Rather, the Tridentine Mass existed [i]before [/i]the Novus Ordo and was [i]radically [/i]altered to form the latter. If there's something in the TLM that seems surprising to you, remember, that's not something that was [i]added[/i], it is something that [i]was removed [/i]in 1970 or thereabouts.

Here's a long comparison:

[url="http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/compare.html"]http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/compare.html[/url]

High points:
CONFITEOR: Priest used to confess first "to God Almighty, Blessed Mary ever virgin, Blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the saints, and to you, brethren, that I have sinned through my fault, my fault, my most grave fault, and therefore I beg blessed Mary ever virgin, Blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the saints, and you, brethren, to pray for me to the Lord our God." Altar servers say may God forgive you, etc. Then the people confess similarly to the same list of saints but ending "to all the saints, and to you, Father."

That is, the celestial and earthly hierarchies were formerly emphasized: God, Our Lady, angels, John the Baptist, apostles, then the other saints, then the priest, then us the congregation.

In the current rite of penance, the confiteor may be totally omitted. If it is left in, the priest and congregation confess TOGETHER to God, Mary, "all the angels and saints, and you my brothers and sisters." That is, we don't have as rich a picture of the celestial hierarchy, and we are given the impression that we are on the same level as the priest.

Offertory: HUGE difference. Where we now have the short prayers with "Blessed be God forever" there were much longer and different prayers. Left side Tridentine right side Novus Ordo, separated by || . Sorry about the formatting but maybe it will still be useful. Easier to see at link above.

Offering of the Host (before it is consecrated)

Receive, O Holy Father, || P: Blessed are you, Lord, God of
almighty and eternal God, || all creation. Through your
this spotless host, which I, || goodness we have this bread to
Thine unworthy servant, offer || offer, which earth has given and
unto Thee, my living and true || human hands have made. It will
God, for my countless sins, || become for us the bread of life.
trespasses, and omissions;
likewise for all here present, || R. Blessed be God for ever.
and for all faithful Christians, whether living or
dead, that it may avail both me and them to salvation,
unto life everlasting. Amen.

P: O God, Who in creating || P: By the mystery of this water
man didst exalt his nature || and wine may we come to share in
very wonderfully and yet more || the divinity of Christ, who
wonderfully didst establish it || humbled himself to share in our
anew: by the mystery || humanity.
signified in the mingling of
this water and wine, grant us
to have part in the Godhead of
Him Who hath vouchsafed to
share our manhood, Jesus
Christ, Thy Son, Our Lord,
Who liveth and reigneth with
Thee in the unity of the Holy
Ghost, God; world without
end. Amen.


The Offering of the Chalice
[At the middle of the altar, || [The celebrant then raises the
the priest says:] || chalice above the altar and says:]

P: We offer unto Thee, O || P: Blessed are you, Lord, God of
Lord, the chalice of || all creation. Through your
salvation, beseeching Thy || goodness we have this wine to
clemency that it may ascend as || offer, fruit of the vine and work of
a sweet odor before Thy divine || human hands. It will become our
majesty, for our own || spiritual drink.
salvation, and for that of
the whole world. Amen. || R: Blessed be God for ever.

|| [Bowing, the celebrant says
|| quietly:]

P: Humbled in mind, and || P: Lord God, we ask you to
contrite of heart, may we || receive us and be pleased with the
find favor with Thee, O Lord; || sacrifice we offer you with humble
and may the sacrifice we this || and contrite hearts.
day offer up be well pleasing
to Thee, Who art our Lord and
our God.

P: Come, Thou, the
Sanctifier, God, almighty and
everlasting: bless (+) this
sacrifice which is prepared
for the glory of Thy holy
name.


_________________________________

Even Eucharistic Prayer I, which is labeled "Roman Canon," has been altered. The left column is a translation of the Latin rendered with "thee" and "thou," but you can see that even besides that, words have been omitted in Eucharistic Prayer 1.

We humbly pray || P: We come to you, Father,
and beseech Thee, most || with praise and thanksgiving,
merciful Father, through || Through Jesus Christ you Son.
Jesus Christ Thy Son, Our || Through him we ask you to
Lord, to receive and to bless || accept and bless (+) these gifts
these (+) gifts, these (+) || we offer you in sacrifice.
[b]presents[/b], these (+) [b]holy
unspotted[/b] sacrifices,

The repetition has been destroyed and the phrase "holy unspotted" or "holy immaculate" referring to the host before consecration and Jesus Whom it will become are removed.
_______________
Prayer just before the Consecration:

And do Thou, O God, || P: Bless and approve our
vouchsafe in all respects to || offering; make it acceptable
bless (+), [b]consecrate [/b](+), || to you, an offering in spirit
and approve (+) this our || and in truth. Let it become
[b]oblation[/b], to [b]perfect [/b]it and || for us the Body and Blood
[b]render it well-pleasing [/b]to || of Jesus Christ, your only
Thyself, so that it may || Son, our Lord.
become for us the body (+)
and blood (+) of Thy most
beloved Son, Jesus Christ
our Lord.

The word "consecrate" is removed; 'oblationem' is translated as "offering" rather than "oblation," which former is an acceptable translation in some contexts but "oblation" represents more clearly that the Mass is a Sacrifice; again the repetition is destroyed, that is, words are removed from a text that is hallowed by more than a thousand years of use for no apparent reason. No longer is God asked to make what is offered pleasing to Him.

_________________________

Consecration of the Chalice:

FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE || THIS IS THE CUP OF MY
OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW || BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF
AND EVERLASTING || THE NEW AND EVERLASTING
TESTAMENT, THE || COVENANT, IT WILL BE
MYSTERY OF FAITH, || SHED FOR YOU AND FOR
WHICH FOR YOU AND FOR || ALL MEN SO THAT SINS
MANY SHALL BE SHED || MAY BE FORGIVEN.
UNTO THE REMISSION OF
SINS.

P: As often as ye shall do || P: Do this in memory of me.
these things, ye shall do
them in memory of Me.

I'm not sure why "Do this in memory of me" is not in capitals; at every Novus Ordo Mass I've gone to, this has been spoken as part of the consecration. Anyways in the Tridentine Mass it was clearly not part of the consecration; further, it has been translated differently into Latin and hence into English. In the New Mass, the phrase "Mysterium Fidei" or "The Mystery of Faith" has been moved so that it no longer appears to refer to the consecration, but to one of three or four texts from which the priest may choose at his discretion. Now, I know and you know that in the bible, the phrase 'Mysterium fidei' is not said at the Last Supper. But we're not Protestants, we're Catholics, so if something gets into the Sacred Liturgy, it should stay there unless there's a darn good reason for changing it. Right?

Hope this was instructive. For more, see the link above. [/font]