Pic Of Sr. Rosalind In New Veil

[osapientia]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1797977' date='Mar 5 2009, 07:33 AM']There are unwritten rules about it. If you're expecting to get into a religious congregation after doing that, you might be in for a shock. If they hear about it, they will think you unsuitable for the life.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

Please pardon me in advance - I honestly mean no disrespect...I'm just feeling a little frustrated with this particular topic....and please don't take this to mean I think anything should be done without careful thought and consideration under legitimate authority....BUT......if we can't even get clarity on the WRITTEN RULES (FROM legitimate authority), for heaven's sake how is ANYONE supposed to be responsible to know and adhere to the UNWRITTEN ONES? Who spoke them? Where do they come from? How does one find them out?

It seems we have many, many rules and/or nuances and/or interpretations on top of unwritten rules, nuances, opinions and interpretations for something that in the end is a SIGN of consecration, not consecration itself. I'm the first to stand up and say it is a BEAUTIFUL sign and one we ought to KEEP.....but it is only a SIGN.

Maybe it's the word, "habit vs uniform". Perhaps we, out of our good intentions "put something" into the word habit that isn't really there? I can't help but wonder if saddle horse riders, official/professional and unofficial/lay have as many issues around the clothing they wear...which is, after all, a habit. If they do, then I must conclude it's THE WORD.

Edited March 5, 2009 by osapientia

[puellapaschalis]

Myself this is all a bit fuzzy and personal, but even though I absolutely long to wear the habit, I'm not going to do so before I actually can. Ok, years ago a whimple was everyday dress for women, but now it's taken on a different and much more specific meaning - to name but one (possible) item of the habit for women.

Why? I don't want to dress as though I've really and truly given my life over to God by means of vows when I haven't in fact done so. To only wear it at certain times (even if that time is Holy Mass) but not at others relates (in my mind at least) to the practise of some religious who wear their habits during some parts of the day but not at others (I'm counting work habits and night habits all under the same umbrella here).

I may definitely [i]desire[/i] to dedicate myself in such a way; and that desire in itself is good. Such a desire will want to manifest itself in some way. But I think for those who have not yet formally entered a community, it's not advisable to wear a habit, even for Mass (members of the 3rd order who have permission are obviously exempt from this because in a way they are part of an order). There are more appropriate ways of showing this longing to be with Christ.

If people are part of a brand new congregation and are part of that process then if the Bishop gives them permission, then that's something else too - even if that process itself can be frustratingly imprecise.

[osapientia]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1798002' date='Mar 5 2009, 09:34 AM']Myself this is all a bit fuzzy and personal, but even though I absolutely long to wear the habit, I'm not going to do so before I actually can. Ok, years ago a whimple was everyday dress for women, but now it's taken on a different and much more specific meaning - to name but one (possible) item of the habit for women.

Why? I don't want to dress as though I've really and truly given my life over to God by means of vows when I haven't in fact done so. To only wear it at certain times (even if that time is Holy Mass) but not at others relates (in my mind at least) to the practise of some religious who wear their habits during some parts of the day but not at others (I'm counting work habits and night habits all under the same umbrella here).

I may definitely [i]desire[/i] to dedicate myself in such a way; and that desire in itself is good. Such a desire will want to manifest itself in some way. But I think for those who have not yet formally entered a community, it's not advisable to wear a habit, even for Mass (members of the 3rd order who have permission are obviously exempt from this because in a way they are part of an order). There are more appropriate ways of showing this longing to be with Christ.

If people are part of a brand new congregation and are part of that process then if the Bishop gives them permission, then that's something else too - even if that process itself can be frustratingly imprecise.[/quote]

I really like "fuzzy and personal" and "frustratingly imprecise". Perfect! Regarding new communities, and other forms of consecrated life recently "renewed", I think that's exactly where the Church is on this issue right now. No one need go further than their local Ordinary, if the permission is given it's given. I think if I were an "emerging charism", I'd want to be a sign of that charism. It puts a person in a real pickle if you say "You can't do something until you approach us for permission and then say, you can't approach for permission until you've done something". It seems to me that it's a bit like this right now for emerging communities - you must SHOW committment to and the ability to live OUT the life before you approach the Bishop but on the other hand you can't live the life publically until you have permission from the Bishop. Yes, frustrating and imprecise indeed.

I personally would go with Puella's "way" for the most part, though I'd be bit more inclined toward NOT wearing it 24/7. I like nightgowns. IMHO work habits and veils are a bit of a pain, unless you are allowed to attend the Divine Office in them. YIKES

[Gemma]

[quote name='osapientia' post='1797995' date='Mar 5 2009, 09:12 AM']Please pardon me in advance - I honestly mean no disrespect...I'm just feeling a little frustrated with this particular topic....and please don't take this to mean I think anything should be done without careful thought and consideration under legitimate authority....BUT......if we can't even get clarity on the WRITTEN RULES (FROM legitimate authority), for heaven's sake how is ANYONE supposed to be responsible to know and adhere to the UNWRITTEN ONES? Who spoke them? Where do they come from? How does one find them out?

It seems we have many, many rules and/or nuances and/or interpretations on top of unwritten rules, nuances, opinions and interpretations for something that in the end is a SIGN of consecration, not consecration itself. I'm the first to stand up and say it is a BEAUTIFUL sign and one we ought to KEEP.....but it is only a SIGN.

Maybe it's the word, "habit vs uniform". Perhaps we, out of our good intentions "put something" into the word habit that isn't really there? I can't help but wonder if saddle horse riders, official/professional and unofficial/lay have as many issues around the clothing they wear...which is, after all, a habit. If they do, then I must conclude it's THE WORD. [/quote]

The habit is both mystery and sacramental.

How do we treat sacramentals? How do we feel when we see non-Catholics walking around with a rosary around their neck just because they think it's cool?

My husband is former army, and he does not appreciate it when civilians walk around in green camo.

Those who walk around in police uniforms are usually arrested for impersonating a police officer.

Canon 669 deals specifically with the religious habit. Look it up.

Common sense and prudence are what it all boils down to. I know we're not supposed to obsess with what others think of us, but when it comes to that, we have to be considerate of others. We cannot afford to mislead the faithful. That's why habits are reserved to those who have made some kind of consecration--or are part of an emerging charism. "Defacto" means "practice."

Blessings,
Gemma

[Gemma]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1798002' date='Mar 5 2009, 09:34 AM']...process itself can be frustratingly imprecise.[/quote]

Thanks for finally putting words to this!

As I said before, one has to contact the canonist first. The canonist answers directly to the bishop on such matters. Therefore, the bishop knows about it, but the bishop, unless he's a founder or canonist himself, relies on the canonist to interpret canon law in regards to emerging communities.

Herein lies the problem--way too many canonists are not familiar with the ins and outs of religious canon law (canons pertaining specifically to the religious life)!!! Therefore, we have dioceses doing all sorts of strange things when it comes to emerging communities.

And that's what we're trying to correct. Our canonist is one of maybe two in the US who know religious canon law, and we're developing a website telling--from a founder's POV--the process.

Canonist Therese Ivers is also developing a website called "Do I have a Vocation?" Someone can google it and post it here.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

[osapientia]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1798021' date='Mar 5 2009, 10:20 AM']Look it up.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

Excuse me. I think perhaps you meant something like, "I'd like to suggest you look up Canon 669 if you are unfamiliar with it".

Canon 669 requires that members of religious institutes wear a distinctive habit...it doesn't say anything about what not to wear.

Canon 669:
Religious are to wear the habit of the institute made according to the norm of proper law as a sign of their consecration and as a testimony of poverty. Clerical religious of an institute which does not have its own habit are to wear clerical dress according to the norm of canon 284.

[Gemma]

[quote name='osapientia' post='1798036' date='Mar 5 2009, 10:52 AM']Excuse me. I think perhaps you meant something like, "I'd like to suggest you look up Canon 669 if you are unfamiliar with it".

Canon 669 requires that members of religious institutes wear a distinctive habit...it doesn't say anything about what not to wear.

Canon 669:
Religious are to wear the habit of the institute made according to the norm of proper law as a sign of their consecration and as a testimony of poverty. Clerical religious of an institute which does not have its own habit are to wear clerical dress according to the norm of canon 284.[/quote]

No harm intended, dear. My life moves so quickly that I have to compact thoughts. Mea culpa if you are offended. As I said, such was not my intention.

I can tell everyone that from my personal experience, those who insist on wearing a religious habit without being a religious are usually told by the local bishop to cease and desist. Charity forbids that I state specific cases. Even to wear a habit to a public mass as a third order member requires the bishop's permission. I know that one from first-hand experience.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Maggyie]

Bishops absolutely do NOT take kindly to people wearing habits in public when they are not yet religious. Basically it's viewed as presenting yourself as something you're not. Kavala if you are wearing a habit to Mass for "practice" I think you need to ask your pastor (or your bishop) if it is all right. He is going to say no.

[stlmom]

Forgive me all of you for initially asking the question about Rosalind Moss's garb, which appears to me to be habit and veil now. I was surprised to see the change in dress from the jumpers she and her former companions wore and were photographed in our archdiocesan newspaper (St. Louis Review). I wondered if I'd missed some new development in the evolution of the community she's attempting to found. I was operating under the assumption that some sort of official recognition had to take place before wearing a distinct habit in public, or that an individual had to be moved from the postulancy to novitiate before taking on a habit. We sure need a new archbishop here soon, as I don't know who is guiding Rosalind at this point.

[DevotedtoHim]

Yes, back to the subject though I am interested in hearing if anybody else wears a habit.

Does Rosalind Moss have a name in religion or is she wearing this and just going by "Sister Rosalind?"

Thanks if you know.

Katherine

[Nunsense]

[quote name='stlmom' post='1798188' date='Mar 5 2009, 12:18 PM']Forgive me all of you for initially asking the question about Rosalind Moss's garb, which appears to me to be habit and veil now. I was surprised to see the change in dress from the jumpers she and her former companions wore and were photographed in our archdiocesan newspaper (St. Louis Review). I wondered if I'd missed some new development in the evolution of the community she's attempting to found. I was operating under the assumption that some sort of official recognition had to take place before wearing a distinct habit in public, or that an individual had to be moved from the postulancy to novitiate before taking on a habit. We sure need a new archbishop here soon, as I don't know who is guiding Rosalind at this point.[/quote]


Actually, it is perfectly permissible to wear a postulant outfit (uniform, garb, whatever you want to call it - but NOT called a habit -- since, as has been pointed out, this is a sacramental and is blessed before wearing it) when one is preparing to entering a community. I have worn postulant outfits at different communities. In Edmonton I wore a long brown skirt, white blouse and brown tunic, with a brown veil. I asked Reverend Mother if I should wear my crucifix on the outside of my blouse but she said that would make me look like a sister in an active community instead of a postulant, so she just suggested wearing it under the blouse (even though we were cloistered and didn't go out!). I think any time someone wears something remotely religious, it can look like a habit. Sometimes when I go to Mass, I dress very conservatively and wear a head scarf, and on several occasions I have been referred to as "sister", so I try not to look so much like one now just to avoid confusion!

The actual canonical Novitiate year begins upon being clothed in the habit however, and I think that is why Rosalind is being careful NOT to refer to her outfit as a habit - to let everyone know that her community is not official yet and she is really a postulant for her own community. Maybe she should have waited even for this, but I think she was given permission by Bishop Hermann (the Administrator there) -- although I can't say this for sure.

As for getting an Archbishop - that is a tough one and I am sure Our Holy Father has his reasons for the delay - maybe he is waiting for someone to become available from another diocese? Bishop Hermann told me that it could take up to six months to get a new Archbishop - but it has been more than that now - so let's pray for them to get someone soon!

It must be very hard for Rosalind to be so high profile and to still be waiting for things to happen. People keep asking her on radio about her community and she has to keep saying that all is in God's hands - as of course, it is. pray pray pray

[Gemma]

[quote name='DevotedtoHim' post='1798214' date='Mar 5 2009, 04:02 PM']Does Rosalind Moss have a name in religion or is she wearing this and just going by "Sister Rosalind?"

Thanks if you know.

Katherine[/quote]

Sr. Rosalind doing so has precedent. Mother Cornelia Connolly, the foundress of the Sisters of the Holy Child Jesus, started as a postulant in her own order. It's not very common, though, and it probably takes place more among those who start the community from scratch, and not a religious sister "transferring" habits.

Postulants are called "Sister" to get them used to hearing it.

Her garb is a simple black dress, with belt, and a SHORT white veil donated to the community by the Nashville Dominicans.

From what I understand, she is still discerning the habit. Since they will be out on the streets, I hope the Holy Ghost leads her to something light-colored.

She plans to go by "Mother Miriam of the Lamb of God" when the time comes.

Blessings,
Gemma

[EWIE]

[quote name='Gemma' date='Mar 5 2009, 05:05 PM' post='1798264']
Mother Cornelia Connolly, the foundress of the Sisters of the Holy Child Jesus, started as a postulant in her own order. Postulants are called "Sister" to get them used to hearing it.

Gemma, Mother Connolly received her religious formation in the Religious of the Sacred Heart.
Blessings

[tnavarro61]

well i am also quite intrigued with the laity, particularly the lay association, wearing habits.

i know of a confraternity here, all men, age ranging from 12 to older. they wear "habits". during one of the solemn professions in my spiritual director's community, i think i saw one of their members attending, with his all-white tunic and a Franciscan belt and i am quite, uhm... what's that term in english? uhm,,, outraged? i felt that the religious were disrespected/

i asked once about this on a forum.. can't remember where and i was told it was okay but reading that third orders do not allow their members to wear habits in the public, i was "moved" to think about this confraternity who wear habits, who accept very young boys in their "community". they said they were allowed by the archbishop to "operate" but i think the bishop didn't know what's happening in them now.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1798264' date='Mar 5 2009, 02:05 PM']Sr. Rosalind doing so has precedent. Mother Cornelia Connolly, the foundress of the Sisters of the Holy Child Jesus, started as a postulant in her own order. It's not very common, though, and it probably takes place more among those who start the community from scratch, and not a religious sister "transferring" habits.

Postulants are called "Sister" to get them used to hearing it.

Her garb is a simple black dress, with belt, and a SHORT white veil donated to the community by the Nashville Dominicans.

From what I understand, she is still discerning the habit. Since they will be out on the streets, I hope the Holy Ghost leads her to something light-colored.

She plans to go by "Mother Miriam of the Lamb of God" when the time comes.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

The problems we had when I was with her, were finding the right material in the right color. She did indeed want a blue color in the beginning, but when she would find a color she liked, it wouldn't be available in the material that was needed. The thing is that pure cotton wrinkles too much, and although cotten blend is better, it is still not too good (especially with yards of material in those long habits). Wool is too hot and doesn't wash and wear. Finding a wool blend in the right color seemed almost impossible -- except in the standard colors of black or white or brown or navy blue. Believe me, she really wanted a much different color than black, but the practical reality is that we were looking for something that was cool in summer, washed easily and didn't wrinkle or need a lot of ironing --- in the color she wanted!! Not an easy task!

Oh, and the straight synthetics were great in terms of ease of care and feel, but they really were much too hot for a St Louis summer!

Edited March 6, 2009 by nunsense

[Gemma]

I spoke with her by phone today. All is well, just waiting for a new Archbishop like everyone else in the archdiocese. Oh, and she prefers correspondence be sent by snail mail. Please, no emails!

Nunsense--do you have that addy?

Blessings,
Gemma

Edited March 6, 2009 by Gemma

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1799249' date='Mar 6 2009, 04:24 PM']I spoke with her by phone today. All is well, just waiting for a new Archbishop like everyone else in the archdiocese. Oh, and she prefers correspondence be sent by snail mail. Please, no emails!

Nunsense--do you have that addy?

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

You forget - I was there ! We have each other's cell phone numbers - but thanks for looking out for me!

[Gemma]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1799306' date='Mar 6 2009, 08:56 PM']You forget - I was there ! We have each other's cell phone numbers - but thanks for looking out for me![/quote]

I was wondering if you could post the snail mail address--since you were there at one time.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Nunsense]

Oh, I thought she would have given it to you on the phone - sorry for the misunderstanding.

Daughters of Mary, Mother of Israel's Hope
4950 Heege Road
St. Louis MO 63123

[DameAgnes]

I know that Third Order Franciscans (SFO) in my area wear a brown tunic to their meetings and private SFO liturgies but not out in public or apostolates.

I know Benedictine Oblates and THird Order DOminicans can be buried in monastic robes.

And I know a Benedictine Oblate who goes on retreat to a monastery and then wears a very short black tunic over her skirt or slacks, that has a hood. She wears this while on retreat, only - or at Adoration in her parish - and then mostly because the hood cuts off her peripheral vision and thus keeps her focused on the holy Eucharist.

This seems sane and okay to me. IF she was running around with the tunic all the time, or at mass every week, I would think she was making a bit of a show of herself.

Edited for typos

Edited March 7, 2009 by DameAgnes