Ecumenism

[Resurrexi]

What is ecumenism? What is the goal of ecumenism? Should dialogue with non-Christians be labeled ecumenism?

[CatherineM]

With non-Christians, we are supposed to call it inter-faith, at least that is what my Ecclesiology professor wrote on one of my papers last year. Ideally the idea is to find common ground, and eventually re-unite. In practicality, ecumenical groups give a larger voice on topics of common interest. We are never to lose track of the fact that we can not water down our message in order to facilitate reunification.

[mortify]

[b]Mortalium Animos[/b] by Pope Pius XI is a must read for a proper understanding of ecumenism.

[dominicansoul]

i know what it isn't. it isn't sacrificing your religious views so that you don't offend other's religious views!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1799573' date='Mar 7 2009, 02:48 AM']With non-Christians, we are supposed to call it inter-faith, at least that is what my Ecclesiology professor wrote on one of my papers last year. Ideally the idea is to find common ground, and eventually re-unite. In practicality, ecumenical groups give a larger voice on topics of common interest. We are never to lose track of the fact that we can not water down our message in order to facilitate reunification.[/quote]
Don't you mean non-catholic?

[Aloysius]

with non Catholic Christians, it could theoretically be "ecumenism" whereas with non-Christians, it's "inter-religious dialogue"... now, I think it to be even more accurate to refer to the relations between true Christian Churches (this does not include Protestant church-like communities) who have Apostolic succession... but ecumenism can refer to all efforts to bring other Christians into the true Church.

inter-faith dialogue is incorrect, IMO, as "faith" in the Catholic theological tradition is not synonymous with "belief" or "religious system"... faith is a divine gift from God and non-Christian religions do not, properly speaking, have faith. only Christianity, properly speaking, truly has "faith" as Catholicism defines "faith"

The Vatican department for that is called the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue.

[Madame Vengier]

Ecumenism is a movement by which peoples of the various branches of the Christian faith come together in a spirit of brotherhood and respect so that open and honest dialogue can be fostered. The secondary goal is for Catholics to gain a better understanding of the hearts and minds of our seperated brethren. The primary goal is to bring them into the Church.

Oh, and I wanted to point out too that, as far as I know, (and I could be wrong so feel free to correct) it's mostly been CATHOLICS who have initiated any type of ecuminism. Our seperated brethren, by and large, have never had a history of extending a warm and welcoming hand to Catholics. Many of them still tell lies about us worshipping statues and many of them still don't believe that we are Christians at all. Not that I'm bitter about it or anything.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1800395' date='Mar 8 2009, 10:55 AM']i know what it isn't. it isn't sacrificing your religious views so that you don't offend other's religious views![/quote]


Word! I've been around promalgators of this false brand of ecumenism and it reeks of spoiled onions! The Catholics are expected to keep quiet about anything that is particular to the Catholic Faith and "stick to the stuff we have in common". I once encountered a Catholic woman who commented on my miraculous medal necklace and she said she used to wear one, too, but she stopped because the Blessed Mother puts off the protestants. That type of stuff. Perhaps this is just my own observation but in my experience the Catholics in this type of false ecumenism actually developed a weakened Faith. The less they were allowed to talk about being Catholic and the more they were convinced that this was okay, the more they became lax in their own religion. It's dangerous for the soul, that's my feeling.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1799573' date='Mar 7 2009, 01:48 AM']We are never to lose track of the fact that we can not water down our message in order to facilitate reunification.[/quote]

Totally agree. Some people don't really believe this though and they treat ecumenism as some kind of tea party to celebrate tolerance and pluralism.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1800411' date='Mar 8 2009, 09:24 AM']Don't you mean non-catholic?[/quote]

I meant dialog with Muslims or Jews or Sikhs for that matter, that's why I said with non-Christians we call it inter-faith. With other non-Catholic Christians we call it Ecumenical. I think I left a sentence out.

[Aloysius]

however, we should call it "inter-religious" dialogue, NOT "inter-faith" dialogue. other religions do not have "faith" as we understand "faith" as Catholics.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1800645' date='Mar 8 2009, 06:02 PM']however, we should call it "inter-religious" dialogue, NOT "inter-faith" dialogue. other religions do not have "faith" as we understand "faith" as Catholics.[/quote]

Why does EVERYTHING and EVERYONE have to be dismissed b/c it doesn't match the CATHOLIC understanding?? It's about trying to understand others, get it? We don't have to agree with them. We just have to understand where they are coming from. How can you expect to evangelize people when you dismiss evertything they think b/c it isn't Catholic? Certainly people of other religions have faith. Who are you to say they don't? How insulting you can be.

[Aloysius]

because I define the term "faith" in terms of Catholic theology and NOT in secular terms. in secular terms, the word "faith" means "belief in anything"... you can have faith in God, Allah, Shiva, your father, your mother; you can have faith in butterflies or faith in aliens according to the secular understanding of what "faith" is. It just means a firm convicted belief in something.

in Catholic theology, faith refers to the summation of all divine revelation and the supernatural grace from God by which we assent to all divine revelation. those who do not assent to divine revelation do not have faith.

I'm simply talking about not bastardizing a sacred word of our theology to make it refer to any religion. it is not the "hindu faith" it is the "hindu religion"... same idea as not calling a hindu ritual a "sacrament"... because the Catholic definition of a sacrament is different; though I believe social scientists sometimes hijack the word to refer to other religions' rituals that are similar. am I meanspirited for saying hindus, muslims, and jews do not have sacraments? it's the same thing as saying they don't have "faith".

[Aloysius]

again, the Vatican's department for this is the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, not for Interfaith dialogue, because it would be incorrect for us to apply that word to non Christian religions.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1800674' date='Mar 8 2009, 05:39 PM']because I define the term "faith" in terms of Catholic theology and NOT in secular terms. in secular terms, the word "faith" means "belief in anything"... you can have faith in God, Allah, Shiva, your father, your mother; you can have faith in butterflies or faith in aliens according to the secular understanding of what "faith" is. It just means a firm convicted belief in something.

in Catholic theology, faith refers to the summation of all divine revelation and the supernatural grace from God by which we assent to all divine revelation. those who do not assent to divine revelation do not have faith.

I'm simply talking about not bastardizing a sacred word of our theology to make it refer to any religion. it is not the "hindu faith" it is the "hindu religion"... same idea as not calling a hindu ritual a "sacrament"... because the Catholic definition of a sacrament is different; though I believe social scientists sometimes hijack the word to refer to other religions' rituals that are similar. am I meanspirited for saying hindus, muslims, and jews do not have sacraments? it's the same thing as saying they don't have "faith".[/quote]
If you want to explain this over again to every single other person from another religion that you talk to in an interfaith/interreligious setting, then go for it.
I think our point is that very very few people even realize the connotations of a secular version of the word faith versus a Christian understanding.
So yea, if it's that important to you, then you should probably explain it to everyone you meet why you refuse to say they have "faith".

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1800746' date='Mar 8 2009, 09:38 PM']If you want to explain this over again to every single other person from another religion that you talk to in an interfaith/interreligious setting, then go for it.
I think our point is that very very few people even realize the connotations of a secular version of the word faith versus a Christian understanding.
So yea, if it's that important to you, then you should probably explain it to everyone you meet why you refuse to say they have "faith".[/quote]
You can say they don't have "the" faith.

[Aloysius]

or we as Catholics could speak correctly with the term "interreligious" dialogue. this is more important of a distinction within Catholic circles... and since we are here and now discussing what exactly ecumenism and that type of stuff is from a Catholic perspective, I thought it'd be a good time to make that distinction.

it's about we, as Catholics, calling it "interreligious dialogue" and not "interfaith dialogue".. people won't even notice the difference. that's what the Vatican generally does, it seems to me; they use the precise terminology because to not do so is to confuse Catholics even if the non-Catholics never even notice the difference. That's why we have a Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue and not a Pontifical Council for Interfaith dialogue. a search of the Vatican's websites shows some sparse references to the word "interfaith", mostly when that's the title of a group or discussion group they'rer addressing, or when it's a lower level document, but it seems everything high level that refers to this calls it "interreligious"--that is the correct term.

it's important that Catholics know what "faith" actually means and the differene between that and the secular definition. the secular word for "faith" is synonymous with "belief" and "religion" and a whole host of other terms, we needn't use this theological term to refer to things which are not the same as it. you need not go around calling all non-Catholics faithless, but talk of non-Christian religions as "beliefs" or "religions"; do not referr to them as "faiths"... no one will even notice.

[Nihil Obstat]

I'm not disagreeing.

I'm just saying that you'll probably be called to explain it often.

[Aloysius]

if I say "you don't have faith"

but not if I merely call their religions religions and their beliefs beliefs... and refer to the dialogue as interreligious, does anyone really notice? how many people are out there demanding that the term "faith" refer to their religion?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1800649' date='Mar 8 2009, 05:10 PM']Why does EVERYTHING and EVERYONE have to be dismissed b/c it doesn't match the CATHOLIC understanding?? It's about trying to understand others, get it? We don't have to agree with them. We just have to understand where they are coming from. How can you expect to evangelize people when you dismiss evertything they think b/c it isn't Catholic? Certainly people of other religions have faith. Who are you to say they don't? How insulting you can be.[/quote]


Why do you have to get so pissed off at every little thing?


Just relax. Go get some Wiskey fill it about a fifth of the way up the glass, add some ice and sprite and sip on that. It'll do wonder

To the smart Irish guy (aloysious?),

I guess my question would be why it matters so much what they call it? I mean would you like it better if they said something like "inter religious dialogue" or something like that?

Also to Madam again, for your talk of protestants making false claims about Catholicism I've seen you make some false/silly claims about Protestantism and Protestants and Islam and muslims, so practice what you preach perhapse