Ecumenism

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1800453' date='Mar 8 2009, 01:21 PM']Ecumenism is a movement by which peoples of the various branches of the Christian faith come together in a spirit of brotherhood and respect so that open and honest dialogue can be fostered. The secondary goal is for Catholics to gain a better understanding of the hearts and minds of our seperated brethren. The primary goal is to bring them into the Church.[/quote]

I agree with this.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1800959' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:48 PM']Why do you have to get so pissed off at every little thing?[/quote]

And why do you have to be so rude?

[Aloysius]

to me, it is important that WE as Catholics state such things precisely, so yes it should be called "interreligious dialogue" as I said. why is it important? because when Catholics start defining "faith" the secular way, they start to understand the virtue of faith in, well, Pelagian terms.. because if faith is just belief, then faith is an act of man. the point is that when we take theological terms and apply them to things that don't fit the theological definition, it muddles the understanding of the actual thing we deal with in our religion. if we started calling all religious rituals of other religions "sacraments", we'll muddle up what our own sacraments are, they would become nothing more to us than another religious ritual. words like "faith" and "grace" and "sacrament" ought to be preserved in their proper theological usage for the sake of Catholics themselves. I'm not so much concerned that non-Catholics know that they don't have faith as Catholics define it, I'm more concerned that Catholics understand that what we have as faith is not faith as the world defines it and it is not equivalent to what other religions have. belief is, we have belief in our religion and it's equivalent to belief in other religions because we both do believe things even if they are different.

so basically, the words should be used precisely by Catholics so that Catholics understand what they are to them.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1800997' date='Mar 9 2009, 01:23 AM']And why do you have to be so rude?[/quote]
I dunno... he was nice to this "smart irish guy"

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1800454' date='Mar 8 2009, 12:26 PM']I once encountered a Catholic woman who commented on my miraculous medal necklace and she said she used to wear one, too, but she stopped because the Blessed Mother puts off the protestants.[/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801008' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:32 PM']because when Catholics start defining "faith" the secular way, they start to understand the virtue of faith in, well, Pelagian terms.. because if faith is just belief, then faith is an act of man.[/quote]

Now that's interesting

Edited March 9, 2009 by Hassan

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1800997' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:23 PM']And why do you have to be so rude?[/quote]


Not rude so much as abrupt. I thik it's a good question. Why do I flip out and get all high and mighty when individuals make what I see as bigoted or overly generalized comments about other groups of people? Because of an experience I had with a Holocaust survivor. Madam V also has an odd tick and I'm wondering what the origin of it is. Fair enough?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801009' date='Mar 9 2009, 12:33 AM']I dunno... he was nice to this "smart irish guy" [/quote]


As an Irishman I'm sure you can appreciate that when I wrote that I had been comming off of a few drinks and consequently may have said some silly things I now rejret later

No but really, I respect your oppinion quite a bit even if I reject a lot of them (in politics and religion)

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1800997' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:23 PM']I agree with this.



And why do you have to be so rude?[/quote]


It's called attention-seeking. Ignore it.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801009' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:33 PM']I dunno... he was nice to this "smart irish guy" [/quote]

It's called playing one side against the other. He does it all the time. If he can use one person to make an assault on another person, that's what he'll do. He'll "appear" to be sticking up for you for the sole purpose of making an attack on me. So transparent.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1801239' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:21 AM']It's called playing one side against the other. He does it all the time. If he can use one person to make an assault on another person, that's what he'll do. He'll "appear" to be sticking up for you for the sole purpose of making an attack on me. So transparent.[/quote]


Listen to Madam V she's obviously a good judge of these things.

I mean she also spotted that I was actually a secret Muslim, that I was lying about having Jewish family, and that I was never a former Catholic

one clever duck


lol, no Madam V. I really am wondering why you see to overreact all the time and I really do respect Aloysius quite a bit.

[Aloysius]

I wouldnt have needed Hassan to 'pit me against you', you did that yourself when you called me insulting. Now, I have explained myself and I assume it was a simple misunderstanding, I know the words "they do not have faith" will seem jarring and insulting to those who are used to the secular definition of what faith is. as I said, I have no intention of going around telling non Catholics they don't have faith; and cmom's suggestion of they dont have "the faith" may be a decent way of wording it, though I might clarify since that seems to be simply saying they don't have "the Catholic religion" and I might even say that of non-Catholic Christians, that they do not have "the grace of faith"... non Catholic Christians certainly have the grace of faith whereas non-Christians do not have the grace of faith. and all this leads me to my original point that it is more accurate to call dialogue with non-Christians "interreligious dialogue" and that we should only use the word "faith" to define Christian religions.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801318' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:23 AM']I wouldnt have needed Hassan to 'pit me against you', you did that yourself when you called me insulting. Now, I have explained myself and I assume it was a simple misunderstanding, I know the words "they do not have faith" will seem jarring and insulting to those who are used to the secular definition of what faith is. as I said, I have no intention of going around telling non Catholics they don't have faith; and cmom's suggestion of they dont have "the faith" may be a decent way of wording it, though I might clarify since that seems to be simply saying they don't have "the Catholic religion" and I might even say that of non-Catholic Christians, that they do not have "the grace of faith"... non Catholic Christians certainly have the grace of faith whereas non-Christians do not have the grace of faith. and all this leads me to my original point that it is more accurate to call dialogue with non-Christians "interreligious dialogue" and that we should only use the word "faith" to define Christian religions.[/quote]

When does a heretical movement push a group from being non Catholic Christians to be non Christians all together?

[Aloysius]

when their baptisms are invalid. they must baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" with water and intend to do as the Church does, whether or not they know or understand what it is that the Church does. our religion operates under supernatural assumptions about the efficacy of sacraments regardless of how they manifest in human ways.

now, one who believes in Jesus and has, through no fault of their own, fallen into an error by which they do not get themselves baptized but by his intellect and Christian actions clearly would have been baptized had he known what that sacrament was may be said to have a baptism of desire, ie all the effects of baptism applied to him if he dies before ever being baptized.

but yeah, it all comes down to baptism, and ANYONE can baptize in an emergency.. a heretic, an apostate, a pagan, et cetera. Anyone who has been baptized is a Christian even if they're a heretic, they're an apostate (not a Christian by religion) if they abandon all faith in Jesus Christ and turn against him, but so long as they're baptized and call upon Jesus they're a Christian even if they hold a host of heresies.

the Catholic Church does not recognize Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses as Christians because their baptisms are false, but she recognizes almost every other group that calls itself Christian as such so long as their baptisms are valid. it's not an act of man that makes one a Christian, but an act of God who will operate through anyone who validly baptizes.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1800930' date='Mar 8 2009, 10:13 PM']if I say "you don't have faith"

but not if I merely call their religions religions and their beliefs beliefs... and refer to the dialogue as interreligious, does anyone really notice? how many people are out there demanding that the term "faith" refer to their religion?[/quote]
Again, I'm not disagreeing with you,

but if the people you are talking to find out the reason you call it religion, and not faith, yea, they may demand that you call it a bona fide faith. They won't be technically correct, but really, that doesn't stop anyone these days.
I'm sure the Protestants are ticked that we don't call them "churches" in the proper sense.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1804437' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:39 AM']I'm sure the Protestants are ticked that we don't call them "churches" in the proper sense.[/quote]
Yes, at least some of them are. I don't think my family are too happy about that, at least.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1804686' date='Mar 12 2009, 11:38 AM']Yes, at least some of them are. I don't think my family are too happy about that, at least.[/quote]
Would they prefer the term "cult"?

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1804858' date='Mar 12 2009, 01:49 PM']Would they prefer the term "cult"?[/quote]


I don't know. Would you appreciate it if I used that term for your church?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1804860' date='Mar 12 2009, 12:51 PM']I don't know. Would you appreciate it if I used that term for your church?[/quote]
See why we don't have 'interreligious dialogue' with atheists?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1804922' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:11 PM']See why we don't have 'interreligious dialogue' with atheists?

[/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1804922' date='Mar 12 2009, 03:11 PM']See why we don't have 'interreligious dialogue' with atheists?

[/quote]


My agnosticism has long been debunked.

I am a secret Muslim

Give me some Jizyah