Official Venting Thread

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1820057' date='Mar 29 2009, 08:39 PM'][quote name='MissScripture' post='1820005' date='Mar 29 2009, 08:13 PM']
I would agree, but what should be done when the parents AREN'T being the primary educators?[/quote]
This was a genuine question, so if anyone has an answer, I would really like to know.[/quote]
Catechists should address this problem outside of the liturgical synaxis.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='rose wrought of iron' post='1820024' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:26 PM']because she can't make all of her kids behave at the same time.[/quote]respectfully, that's croutons.


[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1820030' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:30 PM']This is EXACTLY why this thread is inappropriate. When a group of people come together to criticize others, the group will begin to criticize each other.[/quote]
i was not criticizing Missy, please read my above statement.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1820046' date='Mar 29 2009, 09:35 PM']Yes sir, that is EXACTLY what I am saying. How are we going to bring anyone to the faith if we, Catholics, say bitter things about other Catholics?[/quote]

If you don't like my posts, you are free to avoid them in the future.

As to the direction this has turned, complaining about someone using a cellphone in the middle of mass, or allowing their kids to drive cars up and down a new paint job is a far cry from attacking each others parenting skills. People who have never parented can't know how hard a job it is, or what other issues that person may be dealing with when outside the pews.

I was originally venting about little old ladies talking too loud in the middle of the sermon. I found it irritating, but not to the point of accosting them. They may not have seen each other in a long time, were catching up, and were both hard of hearing. I don't know, and won't judge. That doesn't mean that it isn't still disruptive.

I also hate the fact that I have to walk past prostitute and Johns and used condoms on the way to mass. We are on a main street, and sometimes the sermon is drowned out by police or ambulance sirens. These are also irritating, but my saying so doesn't make me some kind of hatemonger.

[eagle_eye222001]

Well. I don't think anyone on this thread is out to really criticize Catholics and place themselves higher.......more like we are identifying the unfortunate lack of Catechized Catholics among us and how this should remind us of the need to properly teach our brothers and sisters when appropriate.

Shouldn't hide from stating facts. Would be wrong to hide from the many unfortunate situations. I think it's important to be reminded of what is going on and figure out how to address it when we are able to.


----------------
Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lifehouse/track/learn+you+inside+out"]Lifehouse - Learn You Inside Out[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1820057' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:39 PM']This was a genuine question, so if anyone has an answer, I would really like to know.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i have no problem with Sunday school being before or after Mass. that is the proper place to be teaching children about the faith (particularly the mysteries of the Mass), if the parents are unwilling or unable to do so.

edit to add: or if the parents want a 'supplement', so to speak, to their children's education.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1820071' date='Mar 29 2009, 08:44 PM']+J.M.J.+
i have no problem with Sunday school being before or after Mass, that is the proper place to be teaching children about the faith (particularly the mysteries of the Mass), if the parents are unwilling or unable to do so.

edit to add: or if the parents want a 'supplement' so to speak to their children's education.[/quote]
I agree.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1820062' date='Mar 29 2009, 10:41 PM']This was a genuine question, so if anyone has an answer, I would really like to know.
Catechists should address this problem outside of the liturgical synaxis.[/quote]
Forgive the ignorance, but you'd said something earlier about how the congregation shouldn't be divided after the priest begins? Then, what if the children leave before that happens? Is that still incorrect?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1820080' date='Mar 29 2009, 08:47 PM']Forgive the ignorance, but you'd said something earlier about how the congregation shouldn't be divided after the priest begins? Then, what if the children leave before that happens? Is that still incorrect?[/quote]
If they left before that happened they would not give full worship to God on Sunday, which according to the Roman Church's particular tradition would involve the grave sin of failing to satisfy a holy day of obligation.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1820071' date='Mar 29 2009, 09:44 PM']+J.M.J.+
i have no problem with Sunday school being before or after Mass. that is the proper place to be teaching children about the faith (particularly the mysteries of the Mass), if the parents are unwilling or unable to do so.

edit to add: or if the parents want a 'supplement' so to speak to their children's education.[/quote]

I like the term supplement. I know that parents are supposed to be the first line of education. I'm all for supplementation though considering the poor level of catechesis among average Catholics.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1820080' date='Mar 29 2009, 08:47 PM']Then, what if the children leave before that happens?[/quote]
They would not, as baptized Roman Catholics, meet their canonical obligation of worshipping God on the Lord's day.


[quote name='MissScripture' post='1820080' date='Mar 29 2009, 08:47 PM']Is that still incorrect?[/quote]
Yes, it is inappropriate, because once the Church is summoned into being it cannot be divided.

Sending baptized Christians out of the liturgy for a "study session" is contrary to Tradition.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Apotheoun

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1820082' date='Mar 29 2009, 10:50 PM']If they left before that happened they would not give full worship to God on Sunday, which according to the Roman Church's particular tradition would involve the grave sin of failing to satisfy a holy day of obligation.[/quote]
Now I'm just curious, and again, please pardon the ignorance, as I'm sure I could look this up somewhere, but at what age is that required? Does that start at the age of reason, or is that technically required once a child is baptized or is there another age at which that requirement begins?

ETA: Apo, you keep answering my questions before I ask them! You're creeping me out.

Edited March 30, 2009 by MissScripture

[Lil Red]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1820084' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:51 PM']I like the term supplement. I know that parents are supposed to be the first line of education. I'm all for supplementation though considering the poor level of catechesis among average Catholics.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
definitely agreed! even the best parents miss "something".

[Apotheoun]

Any kind of study session focused upon the biblical readings proclaimed during the liturgy should take place before or after the liturgy.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1820089' date='Mar 29 2009, 08:55 PM']Now I'm just curious, and again, please pardon the ignorance, as I'm sure I could look this up somewhere, but at what age is that required? Does that start at the age of reason, or is that technically required once a child is baptized or is there another age at which that requirement begins?

ETA: Apo, you keep answering my questions before I ask them! You're creeping me out. [/quote]
The obligation to worship God is imposed by baptism, and so those who have received the sacrament of baptism are obliged to worship God, even if they have not reached the age of reason.

In the Byzantine Churches babies are baptized, confirmed, and are given first communion all at the same time, and once this is done the baby receives holy communion on a weekly basis for the rest of his life.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Apotheoun

[MithLuin]

While it is certainly appropriate to bring a baptized child to mass, I think we had another thread where it was brought up that the [i]obligation[/i] to attend begins at the age of reason. Thus, parents have a responsibility to make attendance at mass a regular habit, but the child is not obligated to be there, even if baptized, if younger than seven.

The Church's obligations tend to take into account some practical considerations. You can baptize an infant, but it isn't always practical to bring them to mass. If you don't one Sunday, you have not caused the little one to fall into sin and earned yourself a millstone. Just sayin'.

The church I grew up in had no 'children's liturgy of the word' so I was not exposed to it until adulthood. We also had no cry chapel and no narthex, and no bathroom in the building. I don't recall being taken outside to the parking lot if I misbehaved, but I do recall being taken over to the parish hall if we had to use the bathroom. Sometimes, children could be taken to the stairs to the choir loft if they got antsy. I tried to follow along in the missal before I could read, and did follow along once I learned how to read. I was the oldest of 5, so I always had little ones to distract me, too. I remember my brothers playing with cars on the pew; I think my parents allowed us to bring one toy or book; not food, though. It's been awhile, though, so I'm pretty hazy on the details. Anyway, I'm sure there were times we distracted the people around us, and times other kids distracted us. We were mostly good, though. My mother was often complimented on how well-behaved her children were in public. Not that we were [i]always[/i] well-behaved, mind you......


Anyway, I think this thread will remain safer (ie, more charitable) if it sticks to [i]specific[/i] instances rather than general complaints.