Prove Jesus To A Jew

[pat22]

Ok, pretend I'm a Jew(I'm really a Catholic). prove that Jesus was the redeemer.

Edited April 7, 2009 by pat22

[StColette]

[quote name='pat22' post='1827736' date='Apr 7 2009, 02:51 PM']Ok, pretend I'm a Jew(I'm really a Catholic). prove that Jesus was the redeemer.[/quote]

It is up to the one posing the argument to state their evidence first. Please, provide the proof as to why you believe that Christ was not the redeemer.

[pat22]

I was actually hoping someone would state something in his favor and I give something to question it.

[Winchester]

Well, it's already not realistic: Catholics are lazy, Jews are industrious.

[Nunsense]

Tell them to talk to Rosalind Moss - she has the credentials (she is a Jew) and the talent to do this! Or send them to the American Hebrew Catholic website.

[rkwright]

[quote name='StColette' post='1827746' date='Apr 7 2009, 02:03 PM']It is up to the one posing the argument to state their evidence first. Please, provide the proof as to why you believe that Christ was not the redeemer.[/quote]

You're correct, but you've got it backwards. It was evident Jesus was a Jew, no one disagrees on this. But it is our claim that he is something more. It is not the Jews who must disprove he is the redeemer, it us who must prove that he does indeed fulfill the prophecy. We have the burden of proof because we are making the assertion.

[Apotheoun]

Matters of faith are beyond rational "proofs" (cf. the Latin Synod called "Vatican I," chapters 3 and 4), and so the "proofs" so-called cannot be the motive for the divine gift of faith. Such "proofs" are no more than helps to faith already possessed by grace.

[Aloysius]

Matters of faith are beyond rational "proofs" (cf. the Ecumenical Council called "Vatican I," chapters 3 and 4), and so the "proofs" so-called cannot be the motive for the divine gift of faith. Such "proofs" are no more than helps to faith already possessed by grace.

fixed.

[StColette]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1827795' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:50 PM']You're correct, but you've got it backwards. It was evident Jesus was a Jew, no one disagrees on this. But it is our claim that he is something more. It is not the Jews who must disprove he is the redeemer, it us who must prove that he does indeed fulfill the prophecy. We have the burden of proof because we are making the assertion.[/quote]

Yeah, sorry. It is our burden of proof but the other person must provide his evidence which he isn't doing.

It has been one of those mommy brain days.

[Apotheoun]

Matters of faith are beyond rational "proofs" (cf. the Non-Ecumenical Council called "Vatican I," chapters 3 and 4), and so the "proofs" so-called cannot be the motive for the divine gift of faith. Such "proofs" are no more than helps to faith already possessed by grace.

Fixed!!!

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[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StColette' post='1827876' date='Apr 7 2009, 02:41 PM']Yeah, sorry. It is our burden of proof but the other person must provide his evidence. which he isn't doing.

It has been one of those mommy brain days.[/quote]
Faith is a divine gift of grace, and as such it is not founded upon so-called "rational proofs." Faith is a gift of uncreated energy, while the formulation of any argument is an act of created intellect, which by its very nature cannot transcend to the uncreated.

So-called rational "proofs" are simply helps to the faith already lived and experienced by a Christian. To say anything else is to fall into various heresies, including – but not limited to – Pelagianism.

[Deb]

I would recommend that you read the old testament and then look at the life of Jesus to see the prophecies were fulfilled in him. I will give you a start:

The Messiah must... Prophecy Fulfillment by Jesus
Be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7
Be adored by great persons Psalms 72:10-11 Matthew 2:1-11
Be annointed with the Spirit of God Isaiah 11:2, 61:1 Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38
Be hated without cause Isaiah 49:7; Psalms 69:4 John 15:24-25
Be undesired and rejected by His own people Isaiah 53:2, 63:3; Psalms 69:8 Mark 6:3; Luke 9:58; John 1:11,
Be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together Psalms 2:1-2 Acts 4:27
Be betrayed by a friend Psalms 41:9, 55:12-24 Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18
Be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 26:16
Have his price given for a potter’s field Zechariah 11:13 Matthew 27:7
Be forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31, 56
Be struck on the cheek Micah 5:1 Matthew 27:30
Be spat on Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67, 27:30
Be mocked Psalms 22:7-8 Matthew 27:31, 39-44
Be beaten Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67, 27:26, 30
Be thirsty during His execution Psalms 22:15 John 19:28
Be given vinegar to quench that thirst Psalms 69:21 Matthew 27:34
Be considered a transgressor Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
Be buried with the rich when dead Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
Be sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews Isaiah 11:10, 42:1 Acts 10:45
Be accepted by the Gentiles Isaiah 11:10, 42:1-4, 49:1-12 Matthew 12:21; Acts 10:45; Romans 15:9-12

Knock yourself out.

Jesus said he was the Son of God and the Messiah. Good enough for me.

[pat22]

OK I'll try this. In the bible Jesus ran away from getting arrested but during the agony in the garden he told his disciples he had to get arrested in order to fulfill the scriptures, Jesus seems to be the only person in the bible to try to purposely fulfill scripture. I think even I could do that.

[Aloysius]

did He purposefully get crucified (they have pierced my hands and my feet -psalms), did He purposefully have them not break a bone in His body?

moreover, did He purposefully seek to get them to arrest Him? He did not... He merely spoke the truth and when they came for Him He did not resist them or flee. it is not a conniving attempt to make oneself fulfill the scriptures, it is an acceptance of the situations because He was prophesied about in the scriptures.

and "even you could do that"? maybe, but not likely... Jesus knew exactly what he'd be getting into (the worst type of death), you'd likely run away even if you wanted to prove to your buddies that you were prophesied about. an ordinary man trying to wrangle the scriptures to say that he was the Messiah would probably say "oh, yes, the scriptures say i'll get arrested, but actually it didnt mean this time, i can run away"

[Deb]

[quote name='pat22' post='1827910' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:04 PM']OK I'll try this. In the bible Jesus ran away from getting arrested but during the agony in the garden he told his disciples he had to get arrested in order to fulfill the scriptures, Jesus seems to be the only person in the bible to try to purposely fulfill scripture. I think even I could do that.[/quote]


See, Jesus knew that the stiff necked ones were not going to settle for him as the Messiah so he had to fulfil the prophecies so that they could see who he really was. Now, I do believe that he fulfilled about 300 prophecies.
Why don't you go on and give it a try. You could try that one where you get scourged (Jesus had over 5,000 wounds on his body) then you could get the crown of thorns, carry your cross for a while and let people strip you and nail you to a cross and then ask forgiveness for those people before you die. You really think you could do that?

Have you read the entire Old Testament and noticed all the prophecies that match Jesus the Christ?

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1827883' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:48 PM']Faith is a divine gift of grace, and as such it is not founded upon so-called "rational proofs." Faith is a gift of uncreated energy, while the formulation of any argument is an act of created intellect, which by its very nature cannot transcend to the uncreated.

So-called rational "proofs" are simply helps to the faith already lived and experienced by a Christian. To say anything else is to fall into various heresies, including – but not limited to – Pelagianism.[/quote]

Whatever, Todd. You know that I was not meaning that only rational proofs should be taken into consideration. Give me more credit than that.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StColette' post='1827925' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:16 PM']Whatever, Todd. You know that I was not meaning that only rational proofs should be taken into consideration. Give me more credit than that. [/quote]
Although I quoted your post; my post itself was meant in a more general sense about "proofs" of faith, and was not directed solely or primarily at you.

[pat22]

That works, especially the breaking bones one. how 'bout this one:why didn't Jesus defeat the Romans? if he was god he could have and everybody would undoubtedly believe him. he could still teach love your enemy ECT...

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1827931' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:20 PM']Although I quoted your post; my post itself was meant in a more general sense about "proofs" of faith, and was not directed solely or primarily at you.

[/quote]

ty

Sorry if I was snappy. It's been a long day.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StColette' post='1827941' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:24 PM']ty

Sorry if I was snappy. It's been a long day. [/quote]
No worries.

God grant you many joyful years.

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