The Death Of Historical Jesus - Remembered (again)

[reyb]

[quote name='Hilde' post='1835164' date='Apr 14 2009, 10:18 AM']Why are you using "us", plural sense?

And are you saying Jesus is not Jesus?[/quote]

We used the word 'us' referring to 'all witnesses'. Historical Jesus is just an 'interpretation' of a reader to the scripture and not the real Jesus Christ.

[reyb]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1839506' date='Apr 18 2009, 02:28 AM']I would say one of the most conclusive proofs that the Christ of Christianity is the historical Jesus is that nearly all of the twelve apostles died for their faith in the Risen God-Man. I don't know too many people willing to die for something they made up.[/quote]


[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1839518' date='Apr 18 2009, 02:35 AM']Basically if you believe that the Church invented the Catholic understanding of Jesus, you probably also hold that the Apostles were liars. If, however, I were going to invent the story of Jesus' life, I sure would have done a better job than the Apostles at getting my story straight. If you haven't noticed, there are many apparent contradictions between the gospels (note my use of the word [i]apparent[/i].)[/quote]

You are correct if these Characters in your (historical) gospel or (historical) coming of Christ truly exist in this world. In short, you must hold some 'convincing proofs' of their existence otherwise you are just 'believing' such gospel is a historical realtiy.

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='reyb' post='1840696' date='Apr 19 2009, 07:49 PM']After you said ‘Jesus (historical) did exist’, then you followed it up by saying ‘No reputable historians denied the existence of Jesus (historical)’. This is the dilemma of believers because even historians and non-Christians 'believes' in the existence of historical Jesus although some says, Jesus is just a prophet or a carpenter, or whatever but still they are pointing to one Jesus – the historical Jesus. Thus, I asked, ‘Do you have any tangible evidence, a sort of biography of any character in the gospel including the Pharisees (Caiphas, Annas...etc.)?’[/quote]I did point you to what an article summarizing the historical sources. In case you need it, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm"][b]here it is again[/b][/url]. As for a character in the gospels, see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate"][b]Pontius Pilate on Wikipedia[/b][/url], it's a pretty good article.

That some people say Jesus is just a prophet or a carpenter is not a dilemma for believers. Believers simply think these people are wrong, and they've got the historical evidence to show it (again see the newadvent article I linked to).


[quote]I want you to take notice (again) what Apostle Paul said in 2 Cor 4:1-6.

[color="#FF0000"]4:1 Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. [/color]Now, how can anyone see Christ or how can anyone see the light of the Gospel or the image of God without becoming Christ disciples themselves?[/quote]Precisely because, as says Saint Paul in that passage you quote, some are blinded.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[HisChildForever]

I am getting confused over this. Jesus IS Jesus. There is only one!

[Guest]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1842355' date='Apr 21 2009, 06:28 AM']I am getting confused over this. Jesus IS Jesus. There is only one![/quote]

True but when the antichrist comes at the 6th trump before Christ comes at the 7th he will claim to be Jesus and will even decieve the ellect if that were possible. So if some christians will be decieved it will be because they have recieved a different teaching of Jesus and spirit rather then the authentic one handed down by Catholicism and the Spotless Bride Of Christ.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Guest

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1841603' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:50 PM']I did point you to what an article summarizing the historical sources. In case you need it, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm"][b]here it is again[/b][/url]. As for a character in the gospels, see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate"][b]Pontius Pilate on Wikipedia[/b][/url], it's a pretty good article.[/quote]

take from you link...

[indent]Pilate's biographical details before and after his appointment to Judaea are unknown, but have been supplied by tradition, which include the detail that his wife's name was Claudia (she is canonized as a saint in the Greek Orthodox Church) and competing legends of his birthplace. ------- [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate"][/indent]

….whose tradition this ‘biography’ of Pontius Pilate comes from?

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='reyb' post='1845360' date='Apr 23 2009, 11:02 PM']take from you link...

[indent]Pilate's biographical details before and after his appointment to Judaea are unknown, but have been supplied by tradition, which include the detail that his wife's name was Claudia (she is canonized as a saint in the Greek Orthodox Church) and competing legends of his birthplace. ------- [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate"][/indent]

….whose tradition this ‘biography’ of Pontius Pilate comes from?[/quote]Probably Christian tradition, but I don't know for sure.

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1845391' date='Apr 23 2009, 10:17 PM']Probably Christian tradition, but I don't know for sure.[/quote]

[indent]Are you referring to Roman Catholic's tradition (in particular)?[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1841603' date='Apr 20 2009, 04:50 PM']I did point you to what an article summarizing the historical sources. In case you need it, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm"][b]here it is again[/b][/url]. As for a character in the gospels, see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate"][b]Pontius Pilate on Wikipedia[/b][/url], it's a pretty good article.

That some people say Jesus is just a prophet or a carpenter is not a dilemma for believers. Believers simply think these people are wrong, and they've got the historical evidence to show it (again see the newadvent article I linked to).


Precisely because, as says Saint Paul in that passage you quote, some are blinded.[/quote]

I do not think you get me, when I said - ‘….how can anyone see Christ or how can anyone see the light of the Gospel or the image of God without becoming Christ disciples themselves? – With 2 Cor 4:1-6 as our reference.

2 Cor 4:1-6 clearly states ‘[color="#FF0000"]The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God[/color]. In short, unbelievers cannot see Christ because the god of this age has blinded them, which also means, and this is without doubt, if anyone see Christ then they will become Christ’ disciples as Apostle Paul said in Heb 6:4-6 ' It is impossible....' (take note).

[color="#FF0000"]It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.[/color]

But this is not the case in your historical Jesus since in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm[/url] - there are three classes of sources of historical document pertaining to your historical Jesus (who is supposed to be the Jesus of the scripture) to wit, pagan sources, Jewish sources, and Christian sources.

Now, do these Pagans and Jews really ‘see’ Jesus Christ? (so that we can consider their 'documents' real and not just based on 'hearsay or word-of-mouth'). And if they really 'see' Christ, why then they remain pagans.

Edited April 28, 2009 by reyb

[Dr_Asik]

Oh, all right, now I get what you're saying a little better.

When Saint Paul says God has blinded men so they could not see Christ, this is not to be taken litteraly. First, God haven't made anyone physically blind so that they could not see Jesus; also, it's not just seeing Christ, in person or as revealed by the Gospels or other historical sources; Saint Paul is talking about [b]faith[/b]. When he says God has blinded men, this means he denied them the grace of faith. And this is why Catholics say that faith is always a special gift from God.

In other words, even though everyone can "see" Christ (through the Gospels or through any particular source), not everyone becomes a believer, and this is because it pertains to God to give the grace of faith or to deny it. This is basically how I would interpret that passage from Saint Paul.

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1851412' date='Apr 28 2009, 04:16 PM']Oh, all right, now I get what you're saying a little better.

When Saint Paul says God has blinded men so they could not see Christ, this is not to be taken litteraly. First, God haven't made anyone physically blind so that they could not see Jesus; also, it's not just seeing Christ, in person or as revealed by the Gospels or other historical sources; Saint Paul is talking about [b]faith[/b]. When he says God has blinded men, this means he denied them the grace of faith. And this is why Catholics say that faith is always a special gift from God.

In other words, even though everyone can "see" Christ (through the Gospels or through any particular source), not everyone becomes a believer, and this is because it pertains to God to give the grace of faith or to deny it. This is basically how I would interpret that passage from Saint Paul.[/quote]

That is precisely what I am talking about, and they (and I am referring to pagan sources) ‘see’ Jesus but still they do not believe him as the Christ of God. Which is different from Apostle Paul’s letter to the Corithians (2 Cor 4:16). He said ‘2 Cor 4:3-4

[color="#FF0000"]And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God[/color]. NIV

As if Apostle Paul is saying ‘if you see Christ, who is the image of God, through our gospel, then you are no longer having the mind of unbelievers’. In short, if you ‘see’ Christ you will become a ‘believer’ otherwise, you are blind and unbeliever.

But, this is not the case in your statement, from where you simply convey that pagans, Jews and other unbelievers can ‘see’ Jesus – the historical Jesus – but, they are still blind and unbelievers. They do ‘accept’ the existence of historical Jesus, and thus give their ‘historical document’ as proof, but they did not accept Him as the Christ of God’.

In short, if I will follow your line of thought, a believer and unbeliever ‘see’ the same Jesus Christ, which also means, a man having a good eyesight (believer) is just as good as a blind person (unbeliever) since both of them can see this one and the same Jesus Christ - the historical Jesus Christ.

Am I correct in rephrasing your earlier statement?

Edited April 29, 2009 by reyb

[Dr_Asik]

I'm not sure what you mean by "just as good" when you say an unbeliever is just as good as a believer.

What I say is that both acknowledge the existence of a man named Jesus, but only the believer acknowledge that this man was also the Son of God. I do not, however, make a fundamental distinction between the "historical Jesus" and the "Jesus of faith". If the unbeliever were to carefully consider the historical evidence at hand, he would tend to think that there was more to Jesus than a simple man. There is indeed historical evidence for not only the existence of a man named Jesus, but also of his Resurrection from the dead, which attests he is more than a simple man.

The figure in which Catholics believe is a historical one; the man and the Son of God are indeed one and the same.

I'd appreciate if you could formulate your main argument at some point, which seems to revolve around the distinction between the "historical Jesus" and the "Jesus of faith".

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1851778' date='Apr 28 2009, 11:05 PM']I'm not sure what you mean by "just as good" when you say an unbeliever is just as good as a believer.

What I say is that both acknowledge the existence of a man named Jesus, but only the believer acknowledge that this man was also the Son of God. I do not, however, make a fundamental distinction between the "historical Jesus" and the "Jesus of faith". If the unbeliever were to carefully consider the historical evidence at hand, he would tend to think that there was more to Jesus than a simple man. There is indeed historical evidence for not only the existence of a man named Jesus, but also of his Resurrection from the dead, which attests he is more than a simple man.

The figure in which Catholics believe is a historical one; the man and the Son of God are indeed one and the same.

I'd appreciate if you could formulate your main argument at some point, which seems to revolve around the distinction between the "historical Jesus" and the "Jesus of faith".[/quote]

I said ‘if I will follow your line of thinking, it seems, a believer is as good as an unbeliever’ because, both of them can ‘see’ the same Jesus Christ – the historical Jesus.

I do understand when you said ‘both (believers and unbelievers) acknowledge the existence of a man named Jesus’. And although they (unbelievers) acknowledge his existence, they do not believe him as the Christ. This scenario is very obvious in our days due to the existence of many different ‘acceptance’ to this historical Jesus.

But, according to the scripture, Christ is the truth. Now, do you think an unbeliever can ‘see’ the Truth? And if Christ is truly the historical Jesus, do you mean, they do not know the Truth but, they can ‘see’ the Christ?

Is Christ the Truth?

[Dr_Asik]

[quote]But, according to the scripture, Christ is the truth. Now, do you think an unbeliever can ‘see’ the Truth? And if Christ is truly the historical Jesus, do you mean, they do not know the Truth but, they can ‘see’ the Christ?[/quote]Inasmuch as the unbeliever sees Jesus, he sees the Truth, since Jesus is the Truth. However, the unbeliever doesn't see that Jesus is God, hence he doesn't see that Jesus is Truth. And this is what Saint Paul means when he says the unbeliever is blinded and doesn't see the Truth.

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1854598' date='May 1 2009, 05:53 PM']Inasmuch as the unbeliever sees Jesus, he sees the Truth, since Jesus is the Truth. However, the unbeliever doesn't see that Jesus is God, hence he doesn't see that Jesus is Truth. And this is what Saint Paul means when he says the unbeliever is blinded and doesn't see the Truth.[/quote]

‘Seeing Jesus but not knowing the Truth’ is the reason why I started a new topic – Christ is the Truth – and, I will post my comment in it.

[reyb]

Let us go back to our discussion...
Can you please explain how your sins are forgiven through the death of Jesus other than faith (that your sins are forgiven)?

[reyb]

Since Holy week is coming too fast…..

Can you please give your thought on these issues …

1. Why it is necessary for him (Jesus) to die in order to redeem our soul?
2. Why not God just forgive our sins without ‘paying’ anything?
3. What is the relation of his death to your sin?
4. What is your sin which bring him to death? , and
5. How your sin is forgiven through his death?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' date='12 February 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1266029649' post='2056223']
Since Holy week is coming too fast…..

Can you please give your thought on these issues …

1. Why it is necessary for him (Jesus) to die in order to redeem our soul?
2. Why not God just forgive our sins without ‘paying’ anything?
3. What is the relation of his death to your sin?
4. What is your sin which bring him to death? , and
5. How your sin is forgiven through his death?
[/quote]

Is English your first language? What physical person helped in teaching you about your jesus? Was it a preacher? If so what type of church? Did it have a name? Or have you taught yourself all this all by yourself and your jesus? Why do you always ask so many questions? Are you a boy or girl? What's your favorite color? If you could be any animal what animal would you be? Why is the sky blue? How old are you? Why is peanut butter better than jelly? What are some things that rhyme with lame? Why are cats evil? Why does bad things happen to good people? Is Coke better than Pepsi? Why did NBC choose Jay over Coco? Why is Conan still awesome? Why is a raven like a writing desk?

Edited February 13, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 February 2010 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1266029854' post='2056225']
Is English your first language? What physical person helped in teaching you about your jesus? Was it a preacher? If so what type of church? Did it have a name? Or have you taught yourself all this all by yourself and your jesus? Why do you always ask so many questions? Are you a boy or girl? What's your favorite color? If you could be any animal what animal would you be? Why is the sky blue? How old are you? Why is peanut butter better than jelly? What are some things that rhyme with lame?
[/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

Why is Resurrexi the master of disaster?