Catholic Funerals

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[url="http://www.canonlaw.info/2009/04/are-family-annihilators-owed-church.html"]Ed Peters argues no[/url]

Ed Peters (canonist) says no based on canon law.
[quote]I can scarcely imagine a clearer example of "a manifest sinner" who "cannot be granted [an] ecclesiastical funeral without scandal for the faithful" per 1983 CIC 1184, than a murderous husband and father.

Last year, Steven Sueppel was granted an ecclesiastical funeral alongside the wife and children he murdered. I thought that was wrong. Murderers should not be treated with the same deference as their victims. This year, the question of according Alan Wood the same funeral rites as his victims will probably be raised. I, for one, hope the answer will be No.

In any case, it is surely not too much to suggest that the canonical, pastoral, and liturgical questions raised by "family annihilator" cases are not likely to go away on their own, and that therefore canonists, bishops, and liturgists should spend some time thinking through these cases before answers are demanded of them in the midst of shock, and grief, and media spotlights.[/quote]

[CatherineM]

I can't imagine being of sound mind, and destroying my family like that. However, there are ways to quietly bury someone without causing scandal. I do not think the funerals should be done together, unless the surviving family members, from the innocent victim's side, want it.

[Resurrexi]

I would take it that family annihilators are men who kill their families then commit suicide. If that is the case, there should be not even the slightest consideration that they should have Catholic funeral rites, since no-one who commits suicide should be permitted to have a Catholic burial.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843022' date='Apr 21 2009, 07:59 PM']I would take it that family annihilators are men who kill their families then commit suicide. If that is the case, there should be not even the slightest consideration that they should have Catholic funeral rites, since no-one who commits suicide should be permitted to have a Catholic burial.[/quote]

Suicides are buried in the church all the time if they are deemed to have been not mentally capable of understanding their actions. I sang at the funeral of the governor's son who had committed suicide. The Archbishop officiated, so I guess he believed the boy wasn't competent enough to be held responsible for his actions.

[Vincent Vega]

I have a hard time believing that [b][i]anyone [/i][/b]who kills his entire family and/or himself is of a stable and sound state of mind.

[CatherineM]

You're probably thinking of the 1917 version of the Code of Canon Law. The Suicide provision was removed in the 1983 Code.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843022' date='Apr 21 2009, 06:59 PM']\since no-one who commits suicide should be permitted to have a Catholic burial.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
that's another topic.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1843047' date='Apr 21 2009, 07:09 PM']I have a hard time believing that [b][i]anyone [/i][/b]who kills his entire family and/or himself is of a stable and sound state of mind.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i think most of us shy away from thinking that someone could be mentally stable and kill his family and himself. it's a scary prospect.

[Resurrexi]

Nevermind

Edited April 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843022' date='Apr 21 2009, 08:59 PM']no-one who commits suicide should be permitted to have a Catholic burial.[/quote]

Obviously excepting those who show signs of repentance before they actually die or those who were not sane.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Resurrexi

[picchick]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843022' date='Apr 21 2009, 08:59 PM']I would take it that family annihilators are men who kill their families then commit suicide. If that is the case, there should be not even the slightest consideration that they should have Catholic funeral rites, since no-one who commits suicide should be permitted to have a Catholic burial.[/quote]

uh...ok? I totally disagree with this. You do not know what is going on in the mind of a suicide victim. Do they know the consequences of their action in the after-life? Mostly likely no. Most likely it is their easy answer to a very hard and almost impossible situation.

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1844121' date='Apr 22 2009, 11:32 PM']Obviously excepting those who show signs of repentance before they actually die or those who were not sane.[/quote]
And that is totally easy to see when the person hangs themself in the closet alone right?

[picchick]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1842975' date='Apr 21 2009, 08:12 PM']I can't imagine being of sound mind, and destroying my family like that. However, there are ways to quietly bury someone without causing scandal. I do not think the funerals should be done together, unless the surviving family members, from the innocent victim's side, want it.[/quote]

I have to agree with this. I do not know how someone could be of sane mind and do these things. And we don't know for sure their mental stability if they are dead. Only those who do not commit suicide in the end can we treat and evaluate.

[Holly3278]

I voted "I'm not sure." because I don't know what you mean by a family annihilator.

[Era Might]

What is the Church's definition of an "ecclesiastical" or "Catholic" funeral? I have never been to a funeral so I am not familiar with them. If someone cannot receive a "Catholic" funeral, what kind of funeral can they receive, and what distinguishes that funeral from a Catholic funeral?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1850306' date='Apr 27 2009, 05:26 PM']What is the Church's definition of an "ecclesiastical" or "Catholic" funeral? I have never been to a funeral so I am not familiar with them. If someone cannot receive a "Catholic" funeral, what kind of funeral can they receive, and what distinguishes that funeral from a Catholic funeral?[/quote]
A normal catholic funeral has a Mass with specific readings, and a commendation at the gravesite.

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.stjudefw.org/liturgy/funerals.html"]http://www.stjudefw.org/liturgy/funerals.html[/url]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1850306' date='Apr 27 2009, 04:26 PM']What is the Church's definition of an "ecclesiastical" or "Catholic" funeral? I have never been to a funeral so I am not familiar with them. If someone cannot receive a "Catholic" funeral, what kind of funeral can they receive, and what distinguishes that funeral from a Catholic funeral?[/quote]

An "ecclesiastical funeral" is any funeral carried out according to the Church's rite of burial. It often, but not always, includes a votive Mass for the soul of the deceased.

[Aloysius]

one thing that disturbs me about the thought line "I can't imagine anyone would be of sound mind and do something like this"... it begins to beg the question for pretty much every atrocity any human being ever commits. How can you be of sound mind and be a mass murderer? How can you be of sound mind and commit genocide? How can you be of sound mind and torture someone? well... all of these people all must have some mitigating mental disease and therefore the canons aren't applicable to them!

then who, pray tell, are they applicable to? who is a "a manifest sinner" who "cannot be granted [an] ecclesiastical funeral without scandal for the faithful" if everyone who does these things is doing them because of a mental disorder?

while psychology has much to teach us, we cannot agree with the idea that all murderous acts are based solely upon psychological illness. we cannot simply excuse all monstrous crimes as symptoms of psychological illness. I am not saying I know where to draw the line in the sand... except that I'd draw the line in the sand against giving a Catholic funeral to someone who killed their whole family and then themselves.

[eagle_eye222001]

I originally voted "yes" thinking that the Church shouldn't be deciding as there are instances of mentally instablity, however after reading through the comments, I would have wished I would have at least voted "I'm not sure"

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[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1850347' date='Apr 27 2009, 05:55 PM']one thing that disturbs me about the thought line "I can't imagine anyone would be of sound mind and do something like this"... it begins to beg the question for pretty much every atrocity any human being ever commits. How can you be of sound mind and be a mass murderer? How can you be of sound mind and commit genocide? How can you be of sound mind and torture someone? well... all of these people all must have some mitigating mental disease and therefore the canons aren't applicable to them!

then who, pray tell, are they applicable to? who is a "a manifest sinner" who "cannot be granted [an] ecclesiastical funeral without scandal for the faithful" if everyone who does these things is doing them because of a mental disorder?

while psychology has much to teach us, we cannot agree with the idea that all murderous acts are based solely upon psychological illness. we cannot simply excuse all monstrous crimes as symptoms of psychological illness. I am not saying I know where to draw the line in the sand... except that I'd draw the line in the sand against giving a Catholic funeral to someone who killed their whole family and then themselves.[/quote]
I doubt anyone here would say that all atrocities stem from psychological illness.
Evil is a constant presence in the world. I dont know how sound someone's mind can be if they commit an atrocity, but I bet many of them are not certifiably crazy. Someone had something they wanted and they killed to take it, some are so egotistical they can't imagine their family surviving without them so they slaughter them all. And its a 20th century fallacy that says all humans are really good and a] hard life, b]evil parents, c]bad job etc makes them do bad things.