Catholic Funerals

[TeresaBenedicta]

I don't understand why we wouldn't give them a Catholic funeral... Regardless of the sin committed, we can still hope and pray for their salvation. I hope and pray that Judas is in Heaven. Those who have committed such atrocities need our prayers as much as anyone else, as we pray and hope that they are in purgatory.

[Resurrexi]

"O God, from whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion, our Lord Jesus Christ gave to each a retribution according to his merits, so having taken away our old sins, He may bestow upon us the grace of His Resurrection. Who with Thee liveth and reigneth..." (Collect of the Mass of the Lord's Supper in the extraordinary form)

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1852696' date='Apr 29 2009, 11:28 PM']I don't understand why we wouldn't give them a Catholic funeral... Regardless of the sin committed, we can still hope and pray for their salvation. I hope and pray that Judas is in Heaven. Those who have committed such atrocities need our prayers as much as anyone else, as we pray and hope that they are in purgatory.[/quote]

They need our prayers yes, but I can't see giving them a funeral on the same par with the victims or at the same time . It would have to be some small private affair, with only the people who could bear to come.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1852805' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:53 AM']"O God, from whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion, our Lord Jesus Christ gave to each a retribution according to his merits, so having taken away our old sins, He may bestow upon us the grace of His Resurrection. Who with Thee liveth and reigneth..." (Collect of the Mass of the Lord's Supper in the extraordinary form)[/quote]
I noticed that at mass this year and briefly recalled how Judas is often brought up when people are trying to make the point that the Church has never definitively said anyone was in hell... and I wondered if it couldn't be said that through her liturgical rites she actually has said that Judas is in hell?... but then the question is: was the punishment hell or purgatory until the end of time? I am of the opinion that it was probably hell, Our Lord doesn't go around saying of too many people that it would be better for them if they had never been born. plus, the liturgical rite does juxtapose the Good Thief's reward (which was certainly heaven) with Judas's punishment as if they were opposites... it's very hard for me to not classify Judas as the one human being which we do know went to hell.

cmom, yeah I know no one would say that, I was just going off the train of thought. the idea was no one could kill their whole family and then themselves without having some mitigating psychological factor... and I'm wondering how true that really is... I think someone could do it and be very culpable for it. of course, the line of reasoning ad absurdum would be to say that all evil doing is a result of psychological illnesses.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853313' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:19 PM']I noticed that at mass this year and briefly recalled how Judas is often brought up when people are trying to make the point that the Church has never definitively said anyone was in hell... and I wondered if it couldn't be said that through her liturgical rites she actually has said that Judas is in hell?... but then the question is: was the punishment hell or purgatory until the end of time? I am of the opinion that it was probably hell, Our Lord doesn't go around saying of too many people that it would be better for them if they had never been born. plus, the liturgical rite does juxtapose the Good Thief's reward (which was certainly heaven) with Judas's punishment as if they were opposites... it's very hard for me to not classify Judas as the one human being which we do know went to hell.

cmom, yeah I know no one would say that, I was just going off the train of thought. the idea was no one could kill their whole family and then themselves without having some mitigating psychological factor... and I'm wondering how true that really is... I think someone could do it and be very culpable for it. of course, the line of reasoning ad absurdum would be to say that all evil doing is a result of psychological illnesses.[/quote]

Not all murder has a psychological basis of course, but I do think someone slaughtering their own children does.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1853295' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:12 PM']They need our prayers yes, but I can't see giving them a funeral on the same par with the victims or at the same time . It would have to be some small private affair, with only the people who could bear to come.[/quote]

I don't think I can see giving them a funeral at the same time as the victims... but I can see no reason why we ought to "hide" their funeral. If someone can't bear it to come, then they ought not come. But it should be a public funeral so that the public can pray for them.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1853541' date='Apr 30 2009, 05:24 PM']I don't think I can see giving them a funeral at the same time as the victims... but I can see no reason why we ought to "hide" their funeral. If someone can't bear it to come, then they ought not come. But it should be a public funeral so that the public can pray for them.[/quote]
Church funerals are public, but it certainly wouuldn't be advertised in the paper or news.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1853295' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:12 PM']They need our prayers yes, but I can't see giving them a funeral on the same par with the victims or at the same time . It would have to be some small private affair, with only the people who could bear to come.[/quote]

That's exactly how I see it as well. The victims should be the focus. The perpetrator should be buried quietly and separately, leaving the judgments up to God's wisdom.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1853543' date='Apr 30 2009, 05:26 PM']Church funerals are public, but it certainly wouuldn't be advertised in the paper or news.[/quote]

Are funerals usually, or is that simply an option that the family can choose? I think it should be in any normal church bulletin, though. Whatever normal protocal is.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853313' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:19 PM']cmom, yeah I know no one would say that, I was just going off the train of thought. the idea was no one could kill their whole family and then themselves without having some mitigating psychological factor... and I'm wondering how true that really is... I think someone could do it and be very culpable for it. of course, the line of reasoning ad absurdum would be to say that all evil doing is a result of psychological illnesses.[/quote]

I was thinking about the differences between someone who kills their family and them themselves, and someone like John Listz who killed his family, and then just went off and started a new life for himself. Totally different. Also different those who kill their kids in a custody dispute just to hurt their ex.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1853546' date='Apr 30 2009, 05:28 PM']That's exactly how I see it as well. The victims should be the focus. The perpetrator should be buried quietly and separately, leaving the judgments up to God's wisdom.[/quote]

A separate funeral, absolutely... but, honestly.... the perpetrator is in some ways [i]more[/i] in need of our prayers than are the victims. The victims are martyrs of sorts, but the perpetrator is in dire need of our prayers. A private or "quiet" funeral takes away a lot of those prayers.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1853472' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:54 PM']Not all murder has a psychological basis of course, but I do think someone slaughtering their own children does.[/quote]
but always? or, to put it another way, does it always have a psychological basis which is a mitigating factor?

obviously anyone who does this is psycho. but so is anyone who goes into a post office and shoots up the place at random. the question is: where do we draw the line and definitively say "this person's chemical imbalance impaired his ability to make the choice" and where is the other side of the line where "this person's choices caused chemical balances in his brain which made him choose to do this evil act"?

all human actions have some relation to chemical reactions in our brains. an indeed, all human violence is a result of chemicals in our brain which cause us to be violent. but some chemical levels in our brains are like that based upon things out of our control, whereas others are caused by things within our control and are thus a part of our very personality as we have turned towards evil. a person can erode their brain into an evil way of thinking and that has a true chemical reaction in the brain that makes them predisposed to violence; but that's not a type of mitigating factor in the mortal sin of that violence. evil itself is a type of slavery, but when one gives over tot he slavery of evil, he doesn't then become less culpable because the slavery of evil mitigates his ability to exercise his free will.

otherwise, one would have to be in a state of grace in order to commit a mortal sin.

so the question remains, can we presume that someone who does this has a mitigating psychological factor? I contend that not all "psychological" factors are mitigating because all things can be "psychological factors". if one's very personality as they have formed it through years of their own sinful attitudes and behaviors has caused them to have the type of violent breakdown in which they kill their whole family, can we really say that they necessarily have a reduced use of the faculty of their will? all violent breakdowns have a chemical basis... where is the line drawn?

I think it's entirely possible that one could kill their whole family and be completely culpable for it. I wouldn't presume in any case either way (the question of funerals comes down to an analysis of whether something can demonstrate a mitigating factor as well as the questions of scandal), but that means not presuming mitigating psychological factors too.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1853549' date='Apr 30 2009, 05:30 PM']Are funerals usually, or is that simply an option that the family can choose? I think it should be in any normal church bulletin, though. Whatever normal protocal is.[/quote]
Church services - weddings funerals etc are public ceremonies of the Church. Weddings are usually published for three consequetive [???] weeks prior to the wedding and funerals are posted afterward, simply because of time constraints.

[StColette]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1853549' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:30 PM']I think it should be in any normal church bulletin, though. Whatever normal protocal is.[/quote]

Not all Churches publish funeral information or announcements in their bulletins, some do but not all. From my experience, I work in a parish office, it's not a requirement to publicize the funeral. Some funerals, even Catholic ones, can be requested as private for family and friends specifically asked to be there by the family.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StColette' post='1853576' date='Apr 30 2009, 05:49 PM']Not all Churches publish funeral information or announcements in their bulletins, some do but not all. From my experience, I work in a parish office, it's not a requirement to publicize the funeral. Some funerals, even Catholic ones, can be requested as private for family and friends specifically asked to be there by the family.[/quote]
We never know the details of the funerals at our church unless its somebody we personally know, we just show up and do the music.

[StColette]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1853582' date='Apr 30 2009, 05:05 PM']We never know the details of the funerals at our church unless its somebody we personally know, we just show up and do the music.[/quote]



Normally only those in the parish office will know the details, and then some things are only known by the priest and family.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StColette' post='1853584' date='Apr 30 2009, 06:10 PM']

Normally only those in the parish office will know the details, and then some things are only known by the priest and family.[/quote]
We don't ask, we just sing.

[inunionwithrome]

interesting.