God In Public Schools

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1858388' date='May 5 2009, 11:15 AM']There would likely be a fight. There would likely be corruption and abuse of the position. There would likely be collapse of the state. Just like on an individual level--the attempt to do things right often fails, but it does not excuse one from attempting to do what is right in the first place.[/quote]

Except our savior never once forced himself on anyone, he let them choose. So what gives us lesser people the right to force our beliefs on all of the world?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1858390' date='May 5 2009, 11:18 AM']I'm not speaking about the history of the United States, although it's an excellent example of the logical conclusion of a non-Catholic state. True, Catholic states fall to corruption, but it's because of human failure, not because of logic.

The majority of the country likes calling themselves Christian, perhaps, but they resemble in their beliefs Christians as much as a donkey resembles a toadstool. Christianity is more an adornment now than it has ever been in a society.[/quote]


Ok and that further illistrates my point. If the majority of christian's don't hold to christian beliefs, what will they do when you force catholic beliefs on them? How many american's would revolt? How many people would agree with our beliefs. There is a small minority of catholics, true catholics in this country. so what gives us the right to force our beliefs on others? did Jesus force himself on Rome?

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858389' date='May 5 2009, 11:18 AM']We've never had a catholic state or public school run by catholisims and up until the last 50 or so odd years, none of these things were in the public school systems. Having a christian influence in schools is one thing, having catholisism run schools is another. I mean would you be ok with a protenstant run public school system if they ran it the same way you said? If not, then what gives us the right to force catholisims on students but protenstants can force their religon on them?[/quote]
Again, you're talking about history, which has no influence on the Good, unless one is a historicist. Are you a historicist?

No, I wouldn't be okay with Protestant run schools.

Nothing gives me the right. We are not talking about individuals. We are talking about the church established by Christ. You are viewing this with the eyes of an egalitarian, which is to a certain extent unavoidable as our culture has permeated even our theological ideas. That's somewhat unavoidable. The Catholic Church is not equal to any other Church. She is the Bride of Christ, and as such, has authority and position granted her beyond that of any other church, all of whom(with the exception of Judaism, of which Catholicism is the fulfillment) are man made. The position of highest authority is, paradoxically, the most enslaved to service, but that's another matter and only mentioned to give the Catholic perspective of authority, which isn't something lofty so much as a burden bestowed by God.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858393' date='May 5 2009, 11:20 AM']Except our savior never once forced himself on anyone, he let them choose. So what gives us lesser people the right to force our beliefs on all of the world?[/quote]
Again, not force any more than any other requirement of our current society.

Incest, slavery, multiple wives, beating of wives, human equality, human rights, all these vary from religion to religion. Judeo-Christianity is already being forced on the world. At least a Catholic state would be, in its ideal, aimed in the proper direction.

Government is force. You can't get away from that.

No one is forcing anyone ot be Catholic, in the model we're discussing.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1858402' date='May 5 2009, 11:29 AM']Again, not force any more than any other requirement of our current society.

Incest, slavery, multiple wives, beating of wives, human equality, human rights, all these vary from religion to religion. Judeo-Christianity is already being forced on the world. At least a Catholic state would be, in its ideal, aimed in the proper direction.

Government is force. You can't get away from that.

No one is forcing anyone ot be Catholic, in the model we're discussing.[/quote]


How is making public schools become all catholic schools not forcing catholisims on the kids public schools are in place for the general public who can not afford thousands of dollars for a private school. By making public schools all one religion is forcing your beliefs on the public school kids. most people in this country can not afford private schools, so forcing the public school system to become catholic is forcing catholisism on the public.

still again i ask, if the majority of american is not catholic, what gives us the right to overule the majority and impose our beliefs on others?

[Winchester]

The teaching of theology is not the same thing as forcing one to adhere to the religion being taught. Leaving mechanism aside (all the nuances to avoid coercion), do you not think removing Catholicism from schools forces secularism on Catholics? You cannot divorce something like religion (which informs all the other classes--from science to history) from education without changing education. That is bearing out in the current state of education. Whereas such a failure in a Catholic educational system would be corruption of the system, we have the logical conclusion of a system that is in itself corrupt.

Do you view a Catholic state as a violation of human rights?

[quote]still again i ask, if the majority of american is not catholic, what gives us the right to overule the majority and impose our beliefs on others?[/quote]
I don't believe being in the majority brings rights, inherently. Do you view majority rule as making an action acceptable?

I've answered the question more than once: God bestows authority. Majority has nothing to do with it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858407' date='May 5 2009, 11:38 AM']How is making public schools become all catholic schools not forcing catholisims on the kids public schools are in place for the general public who can not afford thousands of dollars for a private school. By making public schools all one religion is forcing your beliefs on the public school kids. most people in this country can not afford private schools, so forcing the public school system to become catholic is forcing catholisism on the public.

still again i ask, if the majority of american is not catholic, what gives us the right to overule the majority and impose our beliefs on others?[/quote]

You do know right that non-catholics attend Catholic schools and are not forced to be Catholic, right, you know that do you not?

No one is forcing any one to be catholic. But the Catholic Church is the only true church, and Her God is the only true God, and He has a rightful place at every school in the United States. Love it or lump it.

[havok579257]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1858431' date='May 5 2009, 12:07 PM']You do know right that non-catholics attend Catholic schools and are not forced to be Catholic, right, you know that do you not?

No one is forcing any one to be catholic. But the Catholic Church is the only true church, and Her God is the only true God, and He has a rightful place at every school in the United States. Love it or lump it.[/quote]


non-catholics attending catholic schools is a choice since all those schools are private and costs money. public school is for the general public who can not afford or chosose not to send their kids toa private school. how about instead of mandating every public school be catholic, we make catholic schools not cost an arm and a leg to go to? the catholic elementry near my house costs 3,000 a year just for tuition for a kid to go to. And that is just for elemtry schools. thats insane. how is anyone with multiple kids supposed to sedn their kids to school there. if you got 4 kids, it will cost you 12,000 a year just for tuition. why not make these schools cheaper to go to.

but that's your opinion and my opinion. what about protenstants who think that about their religion or musliums who think that about their religion. who gets to decide what religion is right and should be the state religion? we think we are right, but so do musliums, so who gets to decide what is the state run schools? if we have the right to make every public schools catholic, do not the musliums have that same right, to make every school muslium?

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858485' date='May 5 2009, 12:53 PM']if we have the right to make every public schools catholic, do not the musliums have that same right, to make every school muslium?[/quote]
Who grants rights?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858485' date='May 5 2009, 11:53 AM']non-catholics attending catholic schools is a choice since all those schools are private and costs money. public school is for the general public who can not afford or chosose not to send their kids toa private school. how about instead of mandating every public school be catholic, we make catholic schools not cost an arm and a leg to go to? the catholic elementry near my house costs 3,000 a year just for tuition for a kid to go to. And that is just for elemtry schools. thats insane. how is anyone with multiple kids supposed to sedn their kids to school there. if you got 4 kids, it will cost you 12,000 a year just for tuition. why not make these schools cheaper to go to.[/quote]


Even so they are not as you are accusing, they are not forced to become Catholic at Catholic schools be they public or private. And no one is arguing to force anyone to become Catholic. Your argument is invalid.


[quote name='havok579257' post='1858485' date='May 5 2009, 11:53 AM']but that's your opinion and my opinion. what about protenstants who think that about their reliProxy-Connection: keep-alive
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on or musliums who think that about their religion. who gets to decide what religion is right and should be the state religion? we think we are right, but so do musliums, so who gets to decide what is the state run schools? if we have the right to make every public schools catholic, do not the musliums have that same right, to make every school muslium?[/quote]

What right have you or any one else to ban Christ His rightfully place at school or anywhere else in HIS creation? Do you, or suggested others put God in a box when you go out in public, and not have Him at the forefront of everything? Do you believe Christ is the One and only True God? From Whom our rights are granted? Or is it all relative?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1858488' date='May 5 2009, 12:57 PM']Who grants rights?[/quote]

well in each part of the world its the state. they grants rights that say if you choose to live in this country you must follow these rules. God grants u the right to life and free will but the state grants us rights to live on their property.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858528' date='May 5 2009, 12:24 PM']well in each part of the world its the state. they grants rights that say if you choose to live in this country you must follow these rules. God grants u the right to life and free will but the state grants us rights to live on their property.[/quote]

You confuse Rights with privileges. Privileges are given by the state and can be taken away, rights are given only by God and are everlasting.

Edited May 5, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[havok579257]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1858530' date='May 5 2009, 01:27 PM']You confuse Rights with privileges. Privileges are given by the state and can be taken away, rights are given only by God and are everlasting.[/quote]


except for those people who don't believe in God. They don't think their rights come from God.


Although still some rights do come from the state. Like in America, I have the right to speak out against the government and not be put to death. In North Korea, I do not have that right.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858570' date='May 5 2009, 02:02 PM']Although still some rights do come from the state. Like in America, I have the right to speak out against the government and not be put to death. In North Korea, I do not have that right.[/quote]
Actually, you have rights. Some governments violate human rights. The government recognizes rights, it does not give them.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858570' date='May 5 2009, 01:02 PM']except for those people who don't believe in God. They don't think their rights come from God.


Although still some rights do come from the state. Like in America, I have the right to speak out against the government and not be put to death. In North Korea, I do not have that right.[/quote]

God exist whether or not people believe in Him. God given rights exist whether or not a government recognizes rights or not.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858361' date='May 5 2009, 10:36 AM']but what's the difference between muslium's in the middle east who believe like this? should they be able to force everyone in the middle east to have to go to muslium only school's[/quote]

No. That is denying parents their rights. I never said the state should deny parents their rights. I merely said that, ideally, all schools funded by the State would proselytize students towards Catholicism. If, in this state, there were non-Christian parents who didn't want their children being taught Catholicism, those parents wouldn't have to send their children to public schools.

[Apotheoun]

I would rather have the Church run schools of its own. That said, I do believe that a voucher system should be used so that parents can send their children to a Catholic school without having to pay twice.

[Resurrexi]

I do think that Catholic schools should be directly under the authority of the local Ordinary, but I think they should be funded with taxpayer money.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1858689' date='May 5 2009, 02:58 PM']I do think that Catholic schools should be directly under the authority of the local Ordinary, but I think they should be funded with taxpayer money.[/quote]
The use of vouchers involves tax money. Parents should not have to pay twice to educate their children.

[Resurrexi]

But that would necessitate the existence of State schools that didn't proselytize the students, which I would be opposed to.