How Many Catholics Actually Believe Like We Do?

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1856288' date='May 3 2009, 01:53 AM']haha, thats a little naive.
You go to the EF Mass which usually attracts serious Catholics.
Most OF Masses attract "Cultural Catholics". I'm not meaning to generalize, but surveys show that most Catholics, even those that attend Mass regularly, don't accept all the teachings of the Church.

I think nearly 45% of the people in the pews don't even believe in transubstantiation. I could find the source if I tried.[/quote]
After 12 years of Catholic schools, I did not know what transubstantiation was until after I was married! A convert made a joke about it and I just laughed because I did not want anyone to know I had never heard of it. In teaching my children religion, I am learning all kinds of things about our faith.

My daughter taught me this one: Does anyone know why St. Thomas Aquinas stopped writing? In a class of Catholic educators, my daughter was the only one (besides the priest teaching the class) who knew the answer. Does anyone else know that?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1856273' date='May 2 2009, 11:34 PM']You never considered that they might be practicing celibacy [/quote]
I think you mean to say that they are (or may be) practicing continence.

[Resurrexi]

Yes, you are correct

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1856288' date='May 2 2009, 11:53 PM']I think nearly 45% of the people in the pews don't even believe in transubstantiation. I could find the source if I tried.[/quote]
Yet someone like me would not be able to join thn the Church over what in practice would be less disagreement that statements like this imply of some who are Catholic.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Light and Truth

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1856278' date='May 3 2009, 06:44 AM']I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said to me "I would have more kids, but...." Basically the reason comes down to financial. They have to have the latest and greatest. The moms have basically told me so. "How can you afford to send them all to college.[/quote]
I know what you mean.

[mamalove]

The statistic about Catholics and artificial birth control that I have heard is about 94-96% of couples use it. I live in a very "Catholic" area and our diocese has been blessed with a high number of vocations to the priesthood. So, naturally, I thought that number was simply not accurate for where I live. Yet, when I discussed this with our local NFP teachers, they informed me that that statistic still stands, even for our very devout area. Needless to say, I was

So, yeah, I would say that is the #1 area of dissent from the faithful in the Church.

Side note: When I was pregnant with my first child (wedding night baby!), my bus driver all through my elementary school days, who was by all means a good and devout woman, told me I should have been on the pill. I was so shocked, I didn't know what to say.

[Archaeology cat]

It is unfortunate here, because many of the marriage prep workers (the ones I've met, at least) don't discuss NFP or contraceptives or anything about sexuality for fear of upsetting people. A friend of mine said when they discussed sexuality in her Catholic high school, that the teachers' only mention of NFP was "oh, you won't want to do that". This is one reason I'm working on being accredited as a Billings Ovulation Method instructor. I'm going to keep pestering people in my diocese and the neighbouring diocese until they get tired of me and give in.

[Collegepak]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1856290' date='May 3 2009, 01:57 AM']After 12 years of Catholic schools, I did not know what transubstantiation was until after I was married! A convert made a joke about it and I just laughed because I did not want anyone to know I had never heard of it. In teaching my children religion, I am learning all kinds of things about our faith.

My daughter taught me this one: Does anyone know why St. Thomas Aquinas stopped writing? In a class of Catholic educators, my daughter was the only one (besides the priest teaching the class) who knew the answer. Does anyone else know that?[/quote]

He stopped writing because you simply cannot write in words about all of God's magnificence and do it justice. For example, he never finished the 4th part of his Summa, and these specifically delt with the mystical aspects of divine revelation. Sure everyone knows his dialectical what we can and cannot know about God propositions, but then rarely will you find a Catholic who has read past the 3rd part in which he defaults on all objections and replies in regards to Eucharistic miracles and prophetic visions, BTW the official Church retains the right to prophesy as it is the New Covenant.

BTW, Angelstar, if you're insinuating that topics like this or for that matter any issue brought up here in the Phorums is a waste of time or droll banter, please save it because you only represent a growing degenerate character within the Church. From the way you present yourself, you were just a lukewarm cradle Catholic. The fact that you still have no intuition for how high the standards can be, says a lot about how seriously you take Divine Fulfillment (in all His creation). All I can say is, I feel sorry for your children. God obviously does, no less he has blessed your daughter with keen insight. I just hope her earthly father will continue to nurture her capabilities and not succumb to plain and simple fitting in. Watch out for that good old Hegelian bubble!

Edited May 4, 2009 by Collegepak

[Slappo]

[quote name='Collegepak' post='1857436' date='May 4 2009, 07:40 AM']He stopped writing because you simply cannot write in words about all of God's magnificence and do it justice. For example, he never finished the 4th part of his Summa, and these specifically delt with the mystical aspects of divine revelation. Sure everyone knows his dialectical what we can and cannot know about God propositions, but then rarely will you find a Catholic who has read past the 3rd part in which he defaults on all objections and replies in regards to Eucharistic miracles and prophetic visions, BTW the official Church retains the right to prophesy as it is the New Covenant.

BTW, Angelstar, if you're insinuating that topics like this or for that matter any issue brought up here in the Phorums is a waste of time or droll banter, please save it because you only represent a growing degenerate character within the Church. From the way you present yourself, you were just a lukewarm cradle Catholic. The fact that you still have no intuition for how high the standards can be, says a lot about how seriously you take Divine Fulfillment (in all His creation). All I can say is, I feel sorry for your children. God obviously does, no less he has blessed your daughter with keen insight. I just hope her earthly father will continue to nurture her capabilities and not succumb to plain and simple fitting in. Watch out for that good old Hegelian bubble! [/quote]


Umm... I'm almost 100% sure she was commenting on the lack of catechesis SHE received growing up... She has 8 children and pregnant with another, those aren't the signs of someone using contraception...

I think she was also kind of curious as to how many other people knew why Aquinas stopped writing. She obviously isn't disappointed in her children knowing things like that about the lives of the saints.

St. Thomas also received a vision of God where God told him that he had written well of God. He also wanted to destroy all of his works.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1857488' date='May 4 2009, 04:45 PM']Umm... I'm almost 100% sure she was commenting on the lack of catechesis SHE received growing up... She has 8 children and pregnant with another, those aren't the signs of someone using contraception...

I think she was also kind of curious as to how many other people knew why Aquinas stopped writing. She obviously isn't disappointed in her children knowing things like that about the lives of the saints.

St. Thomas also received a vision of God where God told him that he had written well of God. He also wanted to destroy all of his works.[/quote]
Well said. I was trying to reply and messed up. But yeah, she's commented in another thread (on Catholic schools, in Open Mic), that she's trying to make sure her children do know the Faith.

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1855672' date='May 2 2009, 03:19 PM']In the past I've been the oddball evil "conservative" on other Catholic and Christian internet forums, but here it seems that there are other pro-life old fashioned Catholics.

We're anti-abortion, don't believe in divorce, are opposed to homosexual behavior, don't believe in birth control, have big families, wait till we get married to have sex, and don't live together outside of marriage. But what percent of the Catholic church is still like us?

Are we the minority? What percent of the Catholic church still believes the way that we do?[/quote]
The first thing to get straight here is that the Church is not a damned democracy.

The Church's teachings on matters of faith and morals are unchanging and found in the teaching of the Magisterium (the Pope and the bishops in communion with him).
If you want to know what the Church teaches on something, read the Catechism.

What percentage of people calling themselves "Catholic" on a poll (or even individual priests and bishops) think about something is irrelevant.
Church teaching is handed down from Christ through the teaching authority of the Magisterium, not determined by the latest Gallup poll.

[i]The Church[/i] is against abortion, homosexual behavior, birth control, and fornication. Any "Catholics" who believe otherwise are not thinking in line with the Church, but deviating from Church teaching, and are indeed "Catholic" in name only.

These aren't "conservative" positions, but are those which all Catholics are bound to believe, regardless of their personal politics.

Yes, there's been a lot of damage done in the Church regarding clear teaching of faith and morals, and many so-called Catholics who dissent from Catholic teachings. And things are much worse in some places than in others.
But the numbers of dissenters should be irrelevant as to what we as Catholics believe. We should be doing our best to follow the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

[thessalonian]

I've been thinking about this thread over the last few days. The question implies something we have to be careful of. Life is a journey. We grow in understanding. We grow in faith. That some are not at the same point as us does not mean that they "don't believe as us". They may be committed to the church but just not at the same point of understanding.

[Angel*Star]

[quote]BTW, Angelstar, if you're insinuating that topics like this or for that matter any issue brought up here in the Phorums is a waste of time or droll banter, please save it because you only represent a growing degenerate character within the Church. From the way you present yourself, you were just a lukewarm cradle Catholic. The fact that you still have no intuition for how high the standards can be, says a lot about how seriously you take Divine Fulfillment (in all His creation). All I can say is, I feel sorry for your children. God obviously does, no less he has blessed your daughter with keen insight. I just hope her earthly father will continue to nurture her capabilities and not succumb to plain and simple fitting in. Watch out for that good old Hegelian bubble! [/quote]


I love Phatmass because these subjects are brought up and we can learn from each other. I also appreciate finding I am not alone. I grew up a frustrated cradle Catholic because I kept thinking there had to be more about the Catholic Church. I loved reading about the saints and often wondered how their Catholic Church could be so drastically different than the one I grew up with. Also, please know I grew up before the internet and EWTN or Catholic radio.

I am THRILLED my children know these kind of things. I was FLOORED (and proud) she knew the answer. It almost angers me how much I was not taught at a younger age. My confessor gently reminds me: You know now. Be grateful for that.

[quote name='Slappo' post='1857488' date='May 4 2009, 11:45 AM']Umm... I'm almost 100% sure she was commenting on the lack of catechesis SHE received growing up... She has 8 children and pregnant with another, those aren't the signs of someone using contraception...

I think she was also kind of curious as to how many other people knew why Aquinas stopped writing. She obviously isn't disappointed in her children knowing things like that about the lives of the saints.

St. Thomas also received a vision of God where God told him that he had written well of God. He also wanted to destroy all of his works.[/quote]

Thanks! That is exactly what I was trying to say. I wanted so much more and truly want more for my children.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1858133' date='May 4 2009, 11:53 PM']I've been thinking about this thread over the last few days. The question implies something we have to be careful of. Life is a journey. We grow in understanding. We grow in faith. That some are not at the same point as us does not mean that they "don't believe as us". They may be committed to the church but just not at the same point of understanding.[/quote]

I agree with this. Not everyone has the same experience as us. We need to be careful we don't get too proud. I know people who think they know more than God Himself. It certainly detracts from wanting to become Catholic, if that is how they are. NOW, I realize that is not how all Catholics are. My confessor also reminds me to practice humility.

For the record, I hope my children never succumb to plain and simple fitting in. I want more for them than that. I want them to know the truth and be strong in their beliefs. I want them to stand strong when the enemy attacks - and he will.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Angel*Star

[havok579257]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1858049' date='May 4 2009, 09:56 PM']The first thing to get straight here is that the Church is not a damned democracy.

The Church's teachings on matters of faith and morals are unchanging and found in the teaching of the Magisterium (the Pope and the bishops in communion with him).
If you want to know what the Church teaches on something, read the Catechism.

What percentage of people calling themselves "Catholic" on a poll (or even individual priests and bishops) think about something is irrelevant.
Church teaching is handed down from Christ through the teaching authority of the Magisterium, not determined by the latest Gallup poll.

[i]The Church[/i] is against abortion, homosexual behavior, birth control, and fornication. Any "Catholics" who believe otherwise are not thinking in line with the Church, but deviating from Church teaching, and are indeed "Catholic" in name only.

These aren't "conservative" positions, but are those which all Catholics are bound to believe, regardless of their personal politics.

Yes, there's been a lot of damage done in the Church regarding clear teaching of faith and morals, and many so-called Catholics who dissent from Catholic teachings. And things are much worse in some places than in others.
But the numbers of dissenters should be irrelevant as to what we as Catholics believe. We should be doing our best to follow the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.[/quote]


Just because you think differently on issues that the church states is wrong does not make you any less of a devout catholic that someone who agrees with everything the church says. As long as you are following the churchs teachings and not trying to convert people to your way of thinking instead of the churchs, then your fine.

like i don't agree with the church's teaching about a man always having to end, we shall say the proper way, when it specifically(and only) deals with your wife already being pregnant with a child. It makes absolutly no sense other than the fact to say, a man must end a certain way no matter what. Not because the church teachs you to be open to life, since its an oxymoron, since your already open to life. no matter if your wife is pregnant and your obviously open to life since she's pregnant and its not possible to be 6 months pregnant and get pregnant during pregnancy. I think the open to life aspect should apply to absolutly every case between a couple unless they are already pregnant since it makes no sense in this case. I see it as just a general rule they have fitted to everyone in the church. Its a rule they put on all sex as a broad as can be rule. Although even though i don't agree with it, i follow the rule. Even though i think it makes no sense, i follow it. which does not make me any less of a devout catholic than someone who 100% agree's with the rule.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1858049' date='May 5 2009, 02:56 AM']The first thing to get straight here is that the Church is not a damned democracy.

The Church's teachings on matters of faith and morals are unchanging and found in the teaching of the Magisterium (the Pope and the bishops in communion with him).
If you want to know what the Church teaches on something, read the Catechism.

What percentage of people calling themselves "Catholic" on a poll (or even individual priests and bishops) think about something is irrelevant.
Church teaching is handed down from Christ through the teaching authority of the Magisterium, not determined by the latest Gallup poll.

[i]The Church[/i] is against abortion, homosexual behavior, birth control, and fornication. Any "Catholics" who believe otherwise are not thinking in line with the Church, but deviating from Church teaching, and are indeed "Catholic" in name only.

These aren't "conservative" positions, but are those which all Catholics are bound to believe, regardless of their personal politics.

Yes, there's been a lot of damage done in the Church regarding clear teaching of faith and morals, and many so-called Catholics who dissent from Catholic teachings. And things are much worse in some places than in others.
But the numbers of dissenters should be irrelevant as to what we as Catholics believe. We should be doing our best to follow the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.[/quote]
Generally agree. Though we do need to make sure there is education about these things.

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858161' date='May 5 2009, 05:47 AM']Just because you think differently on issues that the church states is wrong does not make you any less of a devout catholic that someone who agrees with everything the church says. As long as you are following the churchs teachings and not trying to convert people to your way of thinking instead of the churchs, then your fine.

like i don't agree with the church's teaching about a man always having to end, we shall say the proper way, when it specifically(and only) deals with your wife already being pregnant with a child. It makes absolutly no sense other than the fact to say, a man must end a certain way no matter what. Not because the church teachs you to be open to life, since its an oxymoron, since your already open to life. no matter if your wife is pregnant and your obviously open to life since she's pregnant and its not possible to be 6 months pregnant and get pregnant during pregnancy. I think the open to life aspect should apply to absolutly every case between a couple unless they are already pregnant since it makes no sense in this case. I see it as just a general rule they have fitted to everyone in the church. Its a rule they put on all sex as a broad as can be rule. [b]Although even though i don't agree with it, i follow the rule.[/b] Even though i think it makes no sense, i follow it. which does not make me any less of a devout catholic than someone who 100% agree's with the rule.[/quote]
I bolded the part that struck me. You are a devout Catholic because you submit to the Church, and, in doing this, believe She is right, even though you don't understand it. When I was converting, I got to a point where there were various teachings I didn't understand (still don't understand them all, of course, I'm sure), but said I would submit anyway, and learn along the way as I could. That seems to be what you're doing, as well. We should definitely follow the Church's teaching, and we should also learn the why behind them.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1858204' date='May 5 2009, 01:52 AM']Generally agree. Though we do need to make sure there is education about these things.


I bolded the part that struck me. You are a devout Catholic because you submit to the Church, and, in doing this, believe She is right, even though you don't understand it. When I was converting, I got to a point where there were various teachings I didn't understand (still don't understand them all, of course, I'm sure), but said I would submit anyway, and learn along the way as I could. That seems to be what you're doing, as well. We should definitely follow the Church's teaching, and we should also learn the why behind them.[/quote]
Amen.

One thing I learned through my recent canon law class is that there is definitely room for us to question certain teachings in our own minds, and to struggle with accepting, so long as we submit ourselves to the wisdom of the Church in our actions.

At the same time, that freedom implies a responsibility. If you're really struggling with some aspect of the faith, and don't agree with Church teaching, it is your job to pursue truth and reconcile yourself to it. We should always be working to grow in understanding of our faith, not only for our own holiness but also for that of the people we are in contact with.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1858499' date='May 5 2009, 06:08 PM']Amen.

One thing I learned through my recent canon law class is that there is definitely room for us to question certain teachings in our own minds, and to struggle with accepting, so long as we submit ourselves to the wisdom of the Church in our actions.

At the same time, that freedom implies a responsibility. If you're really struggling with some aspect of the faith, and don't agree with Church teaching, it is your job to pursue truth and reconcile yourself to it. We should always be working to grow in understanding of our faith, not only for our own holiness but also for that of the people we are in contact with.[/quote]

[Paladin D]

All I can say is, it can be very discouraging at times when I think about this subject. Sure there are 1+ billion Catholics in the world, but I would say that the majority do not fully practice the Catholic faith (at least meet the basic requirements). We all have our struggles, doubts, and weaknesses of course, but it's discouraging nonetheless when I realize that I may be one of the very, very, few out there. There are so many quote 'good' Catholics out there who serve the Church, love God, help those in need, and etc., but may disagree with some of the Church's divine teachings. I guess all I can do is pray for them, but sometimes I feel it is pointless since they have free will and God cannot force them to change.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm truely in the same category as a 'real' Catholic.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Paladin D

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1858612' date='May 5 2009, 01:20 PM']All I can say is, it can be very discouraging at times when I think about this subject. Sure there are 1+ billion Catholics in the world, but I would say that the majority do not fully practice the Catholic faith (at least meet the basic requirements). We all have our struggles, doubts, and weaknesses of course, but it's discouraging nonetheless when I realize that I may be one of the very, very, few out there. There are so many quote 'good' Catholics out there who serve the Church, love God, help those in need, and etc., but may disagree with some of the Church's divine teachings. I guess all I can do is pray for them, but sometimes I feel it is pointless since they have free will and God cannot force them to change.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm truely in the same category as a 'real' Catholic.[/quote]

I agree with you. I find it discouraging. It makes me look at the religion and wonder why it doesn't influence the members beliefs more.

I admit that I've dropped out of the Catholic church in the past because I didn't agree with beliefs of the other Catholics I knew -- or even the local Priest. I lived up in Washington state from 1975-1986. During that period of time Archbishop Hunthausen started holding "Dignity Masses" for the homosexuals. And our local priest said that homosexuals were another type of "family".

Hunthausen began holding what he called "Listening sessions" where he would listen to criticism and suggestions for change in the Catholic church. I went to one of his listening sessions that was held in a Catholic school (Perhaps in 1985?). There were a group of women who wanted to become Priests. Hunthausen listened first to the women -- who didn't say anything too wild. Then he listened to the people for and against.

The first bunch that Hunthausen listened to were upset about "alter girls", and putting the host into the hand instead of on the tongue -- which were issues that I honestly wasn't all that concerned about at the time.

The second bunch almost weren't given a chance to speak, and there were some very vocal people who didn't want them to. But to Hunthausen's credit he let them speak and the "Listening Session" ran a little overtime. They were much different than the first bunch. They said that they weren't overly concerned about the way the host was handled or whether alter girls were allowed. They said that what really concerned them was what was taught from the pulpit. And they said that there main gripe with these women who wanted to become Priests was that they were lesbians -- who had their own agenda and wanted to teach beliefs that were counter the those of the Catholic church.

I was standing at the back of the room with some of the teachers from the school and they did NOT like the last group of speakers. They wanted to teach the more "progressive" theology.

It was shortly after this that I gave in to the encouragement of a couple of friends in Seattle and joined their protestant college group. It was a huge group called "The In" held at University Prebyterian in Seattle. And I have to say that I was very impressed by what the "Christians" (Protestants) were teaching compared to the Catholics. Of course I was also impressed by how many women there were there It was a much more social atmosphere, but I felt that the morals they taught were much better too.

I've been to Catholic churches locally that had good Priests and for a while I started attending a Catholic church north of me in Oceanside called "Saint Mary Star of the Sea". Father Mike there was an outstanding Priest. He was a young Priest but he seemed to be a really positive guy and he was a strong prolifer. Of course the Masses he gave were often packed with people.

There's a Catholic school along with Saint Mary Star of the Sea and one day a homosexual couple (One of the guys dressed in drag) came into the school with a child to enroll in the school. Father Mike refused to talk with them -- but was later punished for it and transfered to the Catholic church in Bonita (I found out because my girlfriend, at that time, lived in Bonita and she told me about a new Priest that her parents really liked. She also told me the story of why he got transfered).

Now doesn't the word Magisterium mean "The teaching authority of the Catholic church"? And isn't it made up of the Bishops and led by the Pope in Rome? Are we really supposed to go along with the church when the Bishop, or archbishop, starts teaching beliefs counter to the Pope? I don't understand the argument about the Magisterium. I know that the other parishioners beliefs aren't the same as the beliefs that the Magisterium holds -- but it's some sort of a reflection of the way the Catholic church is changing, and heading, isn't it?

One of my younger brothers refuses to have anything to do with the Catholic church anymore, and he and wife have been talking about going to a local Lutheran church instead. He argues that he isn't going to support a religion that defends pedophile Priests -- and secretly sends some of them down to churches in Mexico to hush up certain situations. I believe that this is going on.

I'm troubled by this and much of what I read in the newspaper "The Wanderer" (I know.. some people view "The Wanderer" as an evil publication, but that's the sort of Catholic that I am.) I suppose the real question I have is: "Is there anything we can do to improve the Catholic church? Or am I supposed to keep quiet and support the church no matter what?"

But I do very much like the bunch of seemingly old-fashioned Catholics who have rebelliously set up these "National Catholic Singles Conferences" and now "Catholic Thrive singles conferences." These conferences seem to get many seemingly genuine conservative Catholic speakers. But maybe much of that should really be credited to Anastasia North and Dave Sloane as well as the others who've pushed to set these up? And they aren't really a reflection of the Catholic church down here in Southern California?

Edited May 6, 2009 by southern california guy

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1859146' date='May 5 2009, 10:45 PM']But I do very much like the bunch of seemingly old-fashioned Catholics who have rebelliously set up these "National Catholic Singles Conferences" and now "Catholic Thrive singles conferences." These conferences seem to get many seemingly genuine conservative Catholic speakers. But maybe much of that should really be credited to Anastasia North and Dave Sloane as well as the others who've pushed to set these up? And they aren't really a reflection of the Catholic church down here in Southern California?[/quote]

I had to laugh at the thought of the NCSC as "rebellious"!

BTW, Anastasia's last name is Northrup.