Justifying Contraception

[mortify]

[b]Edit: perhaps a better title for the thread would be, "Accommodation / toleration of Contraception"[/b]

It's interesting to learn cases of evils being permitted because they are considered a [i]lesser evil[/i] or even requiring toleration to preserve social order. So for example war is a necessary evil in some cases, and even things like prostitution were tolerated in the Medieval ages. St Augustine even said,

[color="#0000FF"]"If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts" [/color]

Now I wonder if this same logic can be applied to an evil such as contraception? We recognize it's use is wrong, but none the less it can be permitted to preserve order.

What do you say?



(As an aside: the Medieval toleration of prostitution: [url="http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/society/sex/prostitution.shtml"][u]http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_S...stitution.shtml[/u][/url])

Edited May 28, 2009 by mortify

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='mortify' post='1877073' date='May 28 2009, 01:39 AM'][b]Edit: perhaps a better title for the thread would be, "Accommodation / toleration of Contraception"[/b]

It's interesting to learn cases of evils being permitted because they are considered a [i]lesser evil[/i] or even requiring toleration to preserve social order. So for example war is a necessary evil in some cases, and even things like prostitution were tolerated in the Medieval ages. St Augustine even said,

[color="#0000FF"]"If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts" [/color]

Now I wonder if this same logic can be applied to an evil such as contraception? We recognize it's use is wrong, but none the less it can be permitted to preserve order.

What do you say?



(As an aside: the Medieval toleration of prostitution: [url="http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/society/sex/prostitution.shtml"][u]http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_S...stitution.shtml[/u][/url])[/quote]

Contraception is and always will be a grave error. The level of knowledge regarding this error is virtually nonexistent in the common population, however. And a great deal could be said for the probable lack of full consent. So you may be able to determine that in some cases contraception constitutes a venial sin of grave nature, but that's about it.

[tinytherese]

Using contraception is very dangerous. There are serious medical side affects and is not as effective as their companies claim that they are. Contraception also has negative affects on the people involved. It hurts the people involved physically, emotionally, and spiritually so why do it? For information on the realies of "safe sex" and the benefits of living out God's love as it was meant to be go to

[url="http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&cat=Birth%20Control"]http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php...Birth%20Control[/url]

[loveletslive]

how does contraception affect people negatively emotionally?

[mortify]

I'm just pointing out that certain sins have been tolerated and even permitted, and perhaps the same could be said for contraception?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='loveletslive' post='1877509' date='May 29 2009, 03:03 AM']how does contraception affect people negatively emotionally?[/quote]
Some people have really bad mood swings when taking hormonal contraceptives.

[musturde]

Birth Control is allowed in certain medical situations where the intention is not focused on preventing childbirth.

If that is true, could condoms be used if a spouse has a certain STD? In this case the intention is to prevent this STD from infecting the other person.

Edited May 29, 2009 by musturde

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='loveletslive' post='1877509' date='May 28 2009, 11:03 PM']how does contraception affect people negatively emotionally?[/quote]
It can destroy a womens sex drive, leading to a lifetime of "not tonight dear, I have a headache". Its thats not a negative emotional consequence I don't know what is...

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='musturde' post='1877852' date='May 29 2009, 11:34 AM']Birth Control is allowed in certain medical situations where the intention is not focused on preventing childbirth.

If that is true, could condoms be used if a spouse has a certain STD? In this case the intention is to prevent this STD from infecting the other person.[/quote]

This is a good question...but I feel you couldn't compare the two situations because the woman using birth control for medical reasons can't help having those medical problems whereas the spouse with the STD could have prevented that from not having sex.

[RemnantRules]

someone please help clarify for me how using birth control kills certain infections and/or help a woman that other medications couldn't do?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='RemnantRules' post='1877900' date='May 29 2009, 01:01 PM']someone please help clarify for me how using birth control kills certain infections and/or help a woman that other medications couldn't do?[/quote]

It has nothing to do with infections but the woman's menstrual cycle and hormone levels. For example, some women go on birth control because they get severe hormonal acne before or during their monthly cycle. As for the menstrual cycle, some women's monthly cycle is not the typical 5-6 days but 2-3 weeks. I am in no way advocating taking this pill, I have heard plenty of things against it, but these are the reasons why a women goes on it. It really shouldn't be called "the birth control pill" in these instances because it is DIFFERENT that the real birth control pill.

Edited May 29, 2009 by HisChildForever

[sweetpea316]

[quote name='RemnantRules' post='1877900' date='May 29 2009, 01:01 PM']someone please help clarify for me how using birth control kills certain infections and/or help a woman that other medications couldn't do?[/quote]
Hmm...none that I can think of. Oftentimes the pill is prescribed as a 'quick and easy fix' and only masks problems, not actually identifying and fixing them. A good friend was having pains and her doctor tried to push the pill on her. She didn't want to take it, so went to a strict no-contraceptive doctor who ended up finding out that she has polycystic ovarian syndrome and fixed the actual problem!

[RemnantRules]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1877908' date='May 29 2009, 12:08 PM']It has nothing to do with infections but the woman's menstrual cycle and hormone levels. For example, some women go on birth control because they get severe hormonal acne before or during their monthly cycle. As for the menstrual cycle, some women's monthly cycle is not the typical 5-6 days but 2-3 weeks. I am in no way advocating taking this pill, I have heard plenty of things against it, but these are the reasons why a women goes on it. It really shouldn't be called "the birth control pill" in these instances because it is DIFFERENT that the real birth control pill.[/quote]

I understand HCF, and I have had other women tell me pretty much what you have described.
But acne and menstrual cycles can be observed and monitor through other routes than just giving Birth Control. How is it different though? I understand in that the intent of taking the pill for those women are not intending to prevent pregnancy, but to help certain symptoms. Yet, the overall purpose of birth control pills is to prevent a pregnancy, even abortification, I can't see it being justified. As a male, hypothetically, if they told me that they could improve my acne and certain testosterone issues, but the prescription is intended to make me impotent or unable to produce children, I couldn't justify taking it.

God Bless

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1877073' date='May 27 2009, 11:39 PM'][color="#0000FF"]"If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts" [/color][/quote]
This quotation is from one of Augustine's earlier writings, and at the time he was still -- at least to some degree -- under the influence Manichaean dualism.

[musturde]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1877899' date='May 29 2009, 11:58 AM']This is a good question...but I feel you couldn't compare the two situations because the woman using birth control for medical reasons can't help having those medical problems whereas the spouse with the STD could have prevented that from not having sex.[/quote]

Can't you contract some STDS simply from birth? Either way, it is irrelevant whether the STD is caused from birth, a past mistake, or rape. The question still remains the same.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='sweetpea316' post='1877912' date='May 29 2009, 01:15 PM']Hmm...none that I can think of. Oftentimes the pill is prescribed as a 'quick and easy fix' and only masks problems, not actually identifying and fixing them. A good friend was having pains and her doctor tried to push the pill on her. She didn't want to take it, so went to a strict no-contraceptive doctor who ended up finding out that she has polycystic ovarian syndrome and fixed the actual problem![/quote]

So true.

although there is no actual fixing of the problem with PCOD/PCOS, there are other ways to treat the symptoms and control one's insulin and blood sugar levels (if that is an issue) and narrow the risk of cancer and other health issues in the future.

Edited May 30, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='musturde' post='1877852' date='May 29 2009, 11:34 AM']Birth Control is allowed in certain medical situations where the intention is not focused on preventing childbirth.[/quote]

True, however the reality is no medical situation is [u]treated[/u] by birth control.

And when birth control is prescribed it is prescribed to cover the symptoms and make them disappear. And the reality is there is always another way to cover those symptoms, if that is what the patient truly wants (which it shouldn't be). We should be seeking to be treated. Not have our symptoms covered up while still suffering from the same issue/disorder.

[quote]If that is true, could condoms be used if a spouse has a certain STD? In this case the intention is to prevent this STD from infecting the other person.[/quote]

No. It is not permissible.

Intimacy should always be open to life. When it is not, it is a sin.

Edited May 30, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1877073' date='May 28 2009, 02:39 AM'](As an aside: the Medieval toleration of prostitution: [url="http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/society/sex/prostitution.shtml"][u]http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_S...stitution.shtml[/u][/url])[/quote]

That's an interesting read... sounds like it leaves out a lot of details, such as the clarification Apotheon noted on the context of that quote from St. Augustine, but an interesting look into history nonetheless. They do note that the Church did not favor prostitution. At best, it was tolerated, but prostitutes were still encouraged to conversion by entering marriage or religious life. Hence, it's not like the Church took an official position of toleration... that seems to be more like society's position on it.

Also, it's very difficult to draw a comparison between prostitution and contraception. Prostitution is committed publicly by people who take it up as a "vocation" of sorts because their entire lifestyle and identity centers around their trade. Contraception is committed privately and women don't draw an identity from contraception as one does from a career or trade.

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1878201' date='May 29 2009, 10:13 PM']Also, it's very difficult to draw a comparison between prostitution and contraception. Prostitution is committed publicly by people who take it up as a "vocation" of sorts because their entire lifestyle and identity centers around their trade. Contraception is committed privately and women don't draw an identity from contraception as one does from a career or trade.[/quote]

Yes, that's true, but the point is certain sins were tolerated. Maybe there is an in between, where we can acknowledge the sin of contraception and still tolerate it?

Btw... it seems many have forgotten that there is barrier contraception (i.e. condoms), so it would leave all the talk about the Pill a moot point.

[mcts]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1877875' date='May 29 2009, 12:22 PM']It can destroy a womens sex drive, leading to a lifetime of "not tonight dear, I have a headache". Its thats not a negative emotional consequence I don't know what is...[/quote]

Apparently one of the hormones released during sex is supposed to get rid of a woman's headache


[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1877899' date='May 29 2009, 12:58 PM']This is a good question...but I feel you couldn't compare the two situations because the woman using birth control for medical reasons can't help having those medical problems whereas the spouse with the STD could have prevented that from not having sex.[/quote]

you can get STDs without ever doing anything wrong.


[quote name='RemnantRules' post='1877949' date='May 29 2009, 01:50 PM']I understand HCF, and I have had other women tell me pretty much what you have described.
But acne and menstrual cycles can be observed and monitor through other routes than just giving Birth Control. How is it different though? I understand in that the intent of taking the pill for those women are not intending to prevent pregnancy, but to help certain symptoms. Yet, the overall purpose of birth control pills is to prevent a pregnancy, even abortification, I can't see it being justified. As a male, hypothetically, if they told me that they could improve my acne and certain testosterone issues, but the prescription is intended to make me impotent or unable to produce children, I couldn't justify taking it.

God Bless[/quote]

If you're on the pill, your cycle can be regulated so there isn't buildup and stuff because if it gets bad enough, the effects can be permanent and you can never get pregnant.