PeteWaldo Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 Surah 4:157 [b]That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus[/b] the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- [b]but they killed him not, nor crucified him[/b], but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, [b]for of a surety they killed him not:-[/b] It should be crystal clear to all, through the above verse, that Islam is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Christianity. This SINGLE VERSE from the Quran rejects ALL of the prophets and apostles of the New Testament and the WHOLE SUBJECT of the new covenant. No crucifixion, death and resurrection. No shed blood. In spite of the massive, even secular historical record, of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
Apotheoun Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 That verse in the Quran, along with many others, proves that Mohammad was not a prophet of the true God.
Lord Philip Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1881420' date='Jun 2 2009, 04:01 PM']Surah 4:157 [b]That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus[/b] the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- [b]but they killed him not, nor crucified him[/b], but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, [b]for of a surety they killed him not:-[/b] It should be crystal clear to all, through the above verse, that Islam is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Christianity. This SINGLE VERSE from the Quran rejects ALL of the prophets and apostles of the New Testament and the WHOLE SUBJECT of the new covenant. No crucifixion, death and resurrection. No shed blood. In spite of the massive, even secular historical record, of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.[/quote] I think you are preaching to the choir here, Pete. Catholics do not believe in the validity of Islam as a religion established by God: it wasn't. Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith as God intended it, because Catholicism is the only religion that God himself established (except Judaism, which Catholicism fulfills). All other religions are at best man made, and at worst authored by the devil. But I suspect you might have an issue with statements to the effect of "Muslims worship the same God." Well, if a Muslim comes up to me and tells me, "I worship the God of Abraham," then I will tell him that he worships the true God. The God of Abraham is the true God. Case closed. End of story. Does this mean that the Muslim truly knows God? He might, but no. Does this mean the Muslim is going straight to heaven? No. Is the Muslim's rejection of Christ not important? No. It is important...it is central. Is it okay that the Muslim remains a Muslim? No...he must accept Christ and enter into the Church that he built. But none of that has any bearing on whether he [i]worships[/i] the true God or not. Don't confuse epistemology (whether he KNOWS who God is) with ontology (whether his worship of God is directed toward the True God). Edited June 2, 2009 by Lord Philip
Apotheoun Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 [quote name='Lord Philip' post='1881457' date='Jun 2 2009, 04:53 PM']But none of that has any bearing on whether he [i]worships[/i] the true God or not. Don't confuse epistemology (whether he KNOWS who God is) with ontology (whether his worship of God is directed toward the True God).[/quote] This kind of philosophical distinction is not made in Eastern Christianity. The only true worship ([i]orthodoxa[/i]) of God is made to the Father, through the Son, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit.
PeteWaldo Posted June 2, 2009 Author Posted June 2, 2009 Indeed. Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 [b]Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous![/b] 1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: [b]he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record[/b] that God gave of his Son. 1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? [b]He is antichrist, that denieth[/b] the Father and [b]the Son[/b]. 23 [b]Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father[/b]: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also]. The PERFECT OPPOSITE. The ONLY anti-another-religion, by design. By Satan's design.
PeteWaldo Posted June 3, 2009 Author Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='LordPhilip' post='1881449' date='Jun 2 2009, 06:42 PM']Well, if a Muslim comes up to me and tells me, "I worship the God of Abraham," then I will tell him that he worships the true God. The God of Abraham is the true God. Case closed. End of story.[/quote] Aren't you concerned that you would be contributing to the Satanic deception under which he suffers, rather than helping him understand that he is filled with the spirit of antichrist? How could he be worshiping the God of Abraham through the phony god "Allah" of the false prophet Mohammed? Surah 9.30 The [b]Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah[/b], and the [b]Christians call Christ the son of Allah[/b]. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. [b]Allah's curse be on them[/b]: how they are deluded away from the Truth! If Mohammed's "Allah" were the same he would seem both schizophrenic, as well as bi-polar, by the above verse.
Winchester Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='Lord Philip' post='1881457' date='Jun 2 2009, 06:53 PM']I think you are preaching to the choir here, Pete.[/quote] I just sit in the pew.
Paddington Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 PeteWaldo, Post #6. You have Apo's name around Lord Philip's quote. Also, I don't think I understand your signature quote from William Blake. Still trying to wrap my head around it. Peace, Paddington
PeteWaldo Posted June 3, 2009 Author Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='Paddington' post='1881533' date='Jun 2 2009, 09:07 PM']PeteWaldo, Post #6. You have Apo's name around Lord Philip's quote. Also, I don't think I understand your signature quote from William Blake. Still trying to wrap my head around it. Peace, Paddington[/quote] Thank you for the heads up. I don't know how I pulled that off! I didn't think the quote button was functioning because I am not used to the way this forum functions. Maybe administration can change the meta tags. I don't see an edit button.
Hassan Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1881420' date='Jun 2 2009, 06:01 PM']Surah 4:157 [b]That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus[/b] the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- [b]but they killed him not, nor crucified him[/b], but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, [b]for of a surety they killed him not:-[/b] It should be crystal clear to all, through the above verse, that Islam is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Christianity. This SINGLE VERSE from the Quran rejects ALL of the prophets and apostles of the New Testament and the WHOLE SUBJECT of the new covenant. No crucifixion, death and resurrection. No shed blood. In spite of the massive, even secular historical record, of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.[/quote]
Hassan Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1881420' date='Jun 2 2009, 06:01 PM']Surah 4:157 [b]That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus[/b] the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- [b]but they killed him not, nor crucified him[/b], but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, [b]for of a surety they killed him not:-[/b] It should be crystal clear to all, through the above verse, that Islam is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Christianity. This SINGLE VERSE from the Quran rejects ALL of the prophets and apostles of the New Testament and the WHOLE SUBJECT of the new covenant. No crucifixion, death and resurrection. No shed blood. In spite of the massive, even secular historical record, of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.[/quote]
musturde Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Peter, Muslims acknowledge Jesus more than most Jews do. For example, Muslims believe in the immaculate conception, that Jesus did miracles such as raise the dead, that he was a prophet of God and that he will come again. The reason why Muslims shy away from Jesus dying on a cross is because Muslims believe God wouldn't have let one of his prophets die in such a way. Muslims very much respect Jesus.
musturde Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/ZKORAN.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/ZKORAN.HTM[/url] Btw, this is a more levelheaded explanation about Islam from a priest. I trust people on this forum will find this source somewhat reliable. Edited June 3, 2009 by musturde
musturde Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1881475' date='Jun 2 2009, 07:22 PM']This kind of philosophical distinction is not made in Eastern Christianity. The only true worship ([i]orthodoxa[/i]) of God is made to the Father, through the Son, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit.[/quote] That's interesting Apotheoun. Does that apply to Jews as well?
Nihil Obstat Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1881647' date='Jun 2 2009, 10:03 PM']Peter, Muslims acknowledge Jesus more than most Jews do. For example, Muslims believe in the immaculate conception, that Jesus did miracles such as raise the dead, that he was a prophet of God and that he will come again. The reason why Muslims shy away from Jesus dying on a cross is because Muslims believe God wouldn't have let one of his prophets die in such a way. Muslims very much respect Jesus.[/quote] I'm inclined to look more favourably on Judaism. They're missing stuff. Islam has added huge amounts. Which is worse? One missed the boat, the other rejected it completely. You see my line of reasoning.
musturde Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1881733' date='Jun 3 2009, 12:49 AM']I'm inclined to look more favourably on Judaism. They're missing stuff. Islam has added huge amounts. Which is worse? One missed the boat, the other rejected it completely. You see my line of reasoning.[/quote] No, one rejected it completely, the other accepted some of it. Muslims accept Jesus as a prophet. Either way, it's whatever. Both religions are different but somewhat similar to Christianity.
Apotheoun Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1881647' date='Jun 2 2009, 09:03 PM']Peter, Muslims acknowledge Jesus more than most Jews do.[/quote] I do not know what you might mean by this, since Muslims deny the divinity of Christ and the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. God the Father is only truly worshipped through His Son in the power of the Spirit, and nothing else qualifies as worship according to the teachings of the Holy Fathers. [quote name='musturde' post='1881647' date='Jun 2 2009, 09:03 PM']For example, Muslims believe in the immaculate conception, that Jesus did miracles such as raise the dead, that he was a prophet of God and that he will come again.[/quote] And this belief of theirs, which is founded upon the falsehoods proposed by Mohammad as "revelation", is salvific? One who denies the Son has not the Father. [quote name='musturde' post='1881647' date='Jun 2 2009, 09:03 PM']The reason why Muslims shy away from Jesus dying on a cross is because Muslims believe God wouldn't have let one of his prophets die in such a way. Muslims very much respect Jesus.[/quote] To deny the crucifixion of the Lord of Glory is to deny the Orthodox faith of the Church. No one can truly worship the Father without the Son and the Holy Spirit.
musturde Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1881752' date='Jun 3 2009, 02:15 AM']To deny the crucifixion of the Lord of Glory is to deny the Orthodox faith of the Church. No one can truly worship the Father without the Son and the Holy Spirit.[/quote] Does this apply to Jews as well?
PeteWaldo Posted June 3, 2009 Author Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1881647' date='Jun 2 2009, 11:03 PM']Peter, Muslims acknowledge Jesus more than most Jews do.[/quote] Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. [quote name='musturde' post='1881647' date='Jun 2 2009, 11:03 PM']For example, Muslims believe in the immaculate conception, that Jesus did miracles such as raise the dead, that he was a prophet of God and that he will come again. The reason why Muslims shy away from...[/quote] Shy away from? What is the [b]whole subject[/b] of the new covenant? [quote name='musturde' post='1881647' date='Jun 2 2009, 11:03 PM']... Jesus dying on a cross....[/quote] What is the whole point of all of the prophets and apostles? Why did God manifest Himself in His Son? You seem to suggest this a minor point that can somehow be overlooked, yet [b]it makes Islam the perfect opposite of Christianity. It is what Islam IS![/b] This is how we can know it is specifically of Satan's design. [b]The only anti-another-religion, religion, by design.[/b] Even Mohammed believed it was jinn (a demon) that met him in the cave where his Satanic book began to be inspired, as he felt like it tried to squeeze the life out of him 3 times. [quote name='musturde' post='1881647' date='Jun 2 2009, 11:03 PM'].... is because Muslims believe God wouldn't have let one of his prophets die in such a way. Muslims very much respect Jesus.[/quote] Respect? Denying the Son of God? Denying His shed blood? That is lip service for blaspheming Jesus. [b]The single most important fundamental in Islam necessitates denying the Son of God.[/b] "Shirk" or anti-polytheism is manifest specifically in denial that God has a Son. Indeed [b]if a Muslim were to confess that Jesus is the Son of God he will have committed the greatest sin in Islam, and the only unpardonable sin,[/b] for which he cannot atone by spending a period of time in Mohammed's hell. 1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. Mohammedanism is designed, in part, by a jealous fallen angel, and in part by a self-serving 7th century reprobate. In other words Mohammedans have been deluded into worshiping Satan. The fruit of Islam makes it obvious: [url="http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/"]http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/[/url]
PeteWaldo Posted June 3, 2009 Author Posted June 3, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1881763' date='Jun 3 2009, 02:55 AM']Does this apply to Jews as well?[/quote] Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Rom 11:17 And if [b]some[/b] of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in [b]among them[/b], and [b]with them[/b] partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
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