My Objections To The Catholic Faith, #2

[Guest ICTHUS-guest]

Question 2.

With this question dealt with, the second presupposition that Protestants hold is that of sola fide. That is, that a man is justified by faith alone, apart from works of any kind.

The basis for this is complex, but I shall try to explain it as concisely as possible.

Romans 3 & 4 make clear that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. It makes it clear that Abraham was justified by faith even before he was circumcised, and that the Christian has righteousness credited to him wholly and perfectly, like Abraham, who “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness”

James 2:14-26 presents the flipside of the coin, and seems at first to be in diametrical opposition to Romans 3 & 4. This passage is often used by Roman Catholic apologists to try to disprove sola fide.

However, the following is a counter-argument by Protestant apologist John Roberson

He pistis = the faith, that faith. "Can faith save him" and "Can that faith save him" would both be legitimate translations. Because James is pitting two different kinds of faith against one another in this chapter (the kind of faith which demons have -- faith without works -- against the saving kind of faith -- faith which produces works), the sense of it is "that kind of faith;" that is, the faith that he says he has when "he has no works." Notice that James emphasizes that he says he has saving faith, rather than emphasizing that he has saving faith, but he needs to be justified by his works, too.

Paul contends that a man is counted righteous (justified) by only faith in the sense of salvation; James contends that a man is counted righteous (justified) by his works in the sense of evidence. Paul speaks soteriologically or metaphysically, James speaks evidentially or epistemologically.

The Council of Trent, however, declares thus.
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
I should also remark that it is an invalid argument to say that the “works of the Law” referred to in Romans 3 & 4 that cannot have any part in justification, are not just those of the Jewish ceremonial law such as circumcision, but also those of loving God and neighbor. Leviticus and Deuterotomy all contain prescriptions that the Israelites are to take care of widows and orphans, give to the poor, and other such works of mercy. It is these works, Protestantism contends, that cannot in any way, shape, or form contribute to justification.
From what I understand of the Catholic position on justification, a man is justified by faith – but not by faith alone. For James says, in James 2, that Abrahams works completed his faith. The Greek here is [font="symbol"]Blepeis h oti e pistiV sunergei toiV ergoiV auto[/font]

The use of the bolded word “sunergei” here denotes a working together. This word is used in context’s such as where St. Paul says “We are God’s fellow workers”, and it denotes a collaboration between two persons.
My question on this topic, then, is twofold
1. The most pertinent question a man could ask: What must I do to be saved?

2. Would it be permissible to say, therefore, rather than “A man is justified [i]sola fide[/i]”, that “A man is justified ‘[i]sola fide obedians’[/i]” (by obedient faith alone). The obedience takes into account the fact that faith and works are married so closely, and reconciles the thought, in my understanding, at least, of Paul and James. If a man can’t be justified by obedient faith alone, then what else is required?

[dUSt]

This belongs in the Debate Table. I'm moving. - dUSt

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='ICTHUS-guest' date='Mar 28 2004, 02:00 PM'] My question on this topic, then, is twofold
1. The most pertinent question a man could ask: What must I do to be saved?

[/quote]
reconcile yourself with God and your fellow man whenever you mortally sin, and maintain obedient faith by responding to God's graces until you die. we are saved "by grace through [obedient] faith"

[quote]2. Would it be permissible to say, therefore, rather than “A man is justified [i]sola fide[/i]”, that “A man is justified ‘[i]sola fide obedians’[/i]” (by obedient faith alone). The obedience takes into account the fact that faith and works are married so closely, and reconciles the thought, in my understanding, at least, of Paul and James. If a man can’t be justified by obedient faith alone, then what else is required?[/quote]
as long as you acknowledge the role of grace in maintaining this faith, then i believe that "sola fide obedians" is a correct statement and a proper understanding of catholic soterology.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='ICTHUS-guest' date='Mar 28 2004, 02:00 PM'] Romans 3 & 4 make clear that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. It makes it clear that Abraham was justified by faith even before he was circumcised, and that the Christian has righteousness credited to him wholly and perfectly, like Abraham, who “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” [/quote]
From a debate with Jason Engwer, on my website:

"First off, you read Genesis 15:6 as if it said "Abraham believed God, and an alien righteousness was reckoned to him." However, this is not what the Scripture says. It says that Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. The "it" can only refer to Abraham's faith. Thus, the meaning of the text is that God looked at Abraham's faith, and recognized it as an inherrently righteouss quality in Abraham's soul. Thus, there is nothing in this passage which would preclude the possibility that God might, at another time, look at Abraham's, say, love, obedience, or works, and reckon that to him as righteousness as well. This interpretation is supported by the parrallel usage of the construction "it was reckoned to him as righteousness" in Psalm 106:29-31, and as you yourslef have admitted, Genesis 15:6 was not the time when Abraham recieved the once and for all imputation of Christ's righteousness."

[quote]Paul contends that a man is counted righteous (justified) by only faith in the sense of salvation; James contends that a man is counted righteous (justified) by his works in the sense of evidence. Paul speaks soteriologically or metaphysically, James speaks evidentially or epistemologically.[/quote]
The contention that when St. James says that we are justified by works, he is not talking about justification in the sense of salvation, is untenable. 2:24 is the conclusion to an inquiry which St. James began in verse 14 of that chapter. "Can the faith [b]save[/b] him?" Thus, when St. James concludes in the negative, and states that we are justified by works and not by faith alone, he can only mean justification in the sense of salvation.

[quote]I should also remark that it is an invalid argument to say that the “works of the Law” referred to in Romans 3 & 4 that cannot have any part in justification, are not just those of the Jewish ceremonial law such as circumcision, but also those of loving God and neighbor. Leviticus and Deuterotomy all contain prescriptions that the Israelites are to take care of widows and orphans, give to the poor, and other such works of mercy. It is these works, Protestantism contends, that cannot in any way, shape, or form contribute to justification.[/quote]
The phrase "works of the law" does indeed refer to the Jewish law [i]in toto[/i]. It includes the moral precepts of the Law as well as the ceremonial. What St. Paul does not exclude in Romans 3:27 are works of grace, which proceed from charity. If we do not have such works, even a faith strong enough to move mountains is nothing (1 COrinthians 13:2).

[quote]1. The most pertinent question a man could ask: What must I do to be saved?[/quote]
I'll let Jesus Christ answer this one for me.

[quote]Matthew 19, RSV
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 27 Then Peter said in reply, "Lo, we have left everything and followed you. What then shall we have?" 28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many that are first will be last, and the last first.[/quote]

[quote]2. Would it be permissible to say, therefore, rather than “A man is justified [i]sola fide[/i]”, that “A man is justified ‘[i]sola fide obedians’[/i]” (by obedient faith alone). The obedience takes into account the fact that faith and works are married so closely, and reconciles the thought, in my understanding, at least, of Paul and James. If a man can’t be justified by obedient faith alone, then what else is required?[/quote]
I prefer to say we are justified by faith, hope, and love. The crucial distinction between Catholic and Protestant theology on justification is that the Catholic Church that the virtues whereby we are justified are infused into our souls and thus become truly ours, rahter than simply being credited to our account.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]With this question dealt with, the second presupposition that Protestants hold is that of sola fide. That is, that a man is justified by faith alone, apart from works of any kind. [/quote]

James 3:17-20

"So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead;
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, [b]and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.[/b] You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. [b]Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?"[/b]

Jn 14:15- "if you love Me,[b]you wll keep My Commandments"[/b]
Mt 19:16-17 "if you wish to enter into life, [b]keep My Commandments"[/b]

[quote]1. The most pertinent question a man could ask: What must I do to be saved?[/quote]

John 3:5

Jesus answered,"Amen , amen I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

You must be Baptized! First off. Believe that God is [b]ONE GOD[/b] three divine persons
Father, Son, Holy Spirit. You must be Baptized in The Holy Trinity Name, " I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Also on your question on faith and works Our Lord said a tree is known by the fruit it bears. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
So that says there is some sort of outward apperance that shows your faith. You can't say I know Jesus and be for abortion, or say I love Jesus and hate your enimes!

The Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. We have 2000 years of Tradition, we have the sucessors of Peter, right now Pope John Paul II. He is the visible Head of the Church. We have the Sacraments, the most impotant The Holy Eucharist! We believe that He is present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity under the apperances of Bread and Wine. In John chapter 6 He said "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is My Flesh for the life of the world." Than He says "Amen, amen I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood, you do not have life within you." "For my flesh is true food, and my blood true drink." Remember that Jesus said later in Johns Gospel that He is "The Way, the Truth and the Life." Since He is Truth itself He cannot decive nor be decived. He speaks Truth and only Truth and He commanded us to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood or we will not have life within us.

Only The Catholic Church has the fullness of this Truth. Only a Catholic Priest can invoke the Holy Spirit and change them (the gifts of bread and wine) into The Body, Blood , Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

You ask what one must do for Salvation, many things. First Like I said be Baptized.
The Catholic Church teaches after Baptism one must be Confirmed, (Confirmation). Put plainly confirming ones Baptism they go together a seal. At Confirmation you are annoited with chrism oil. Then you must have the Sacrament of Penance to have our sins absolved. !1 John 5:16-17 "If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. [b]There is such a thing as deadly sin[/b], about which I do no say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."

This is what The Catholic Church call venial, and mortal sin. Mortal sin must be confessed to a Catholic Priest in order to restore ones grace with God. Why a priest? Because he stands in the person of Christ, sameway at Holy Mass, Christ does His work through the priest. Jesus told St, Faustina "Know that I wait for you in the confessional, I borrow the lips of the priest." See one can't just say I'm sorry and that be it. God gave the Sacraments to His Catholic Church for a reason, to be close to us. He knew we would need them! Especially The Holy Eucharist, were God becomes one with man, the closest personal relationship one can have with God! This we stand by This we will profess until He comes again!

Hope this helped
God Bless You,
Jason

[phatcatholic]

icthus,

for an excellent look at the proper interpretation of Romans, i HIGHLY suggest the following article:

[b]--[url="http://www.lumengentleman.com/content.asp?file=rescuing_romans"]Rescuing Romans from the Reformers[/url][/b]

make sure you read it carefully, and that you read the entire thing. it really helped me to sort out the life of Abraham and how he relates to salvation by faith. i pray that you will read it and that it will be edifying for you.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 29 2004, 03:04 PM'] John 3:5

Jesus answered,"Amen , amen I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

You must be Baptized! [/quote]
A bit of advice, if you don't mind. Before you use John 3:5 with a non-Catholic you should substantiate your claim that it is a reference to baptism. You can do this by appealing to context. Just prior to this statement, Jesus was baptized with water, and He recieved the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove (John 1:29-34 cf. Matthew 3:13-17). So here we have the "water" and "Spirit" mentioned in John 3:5. Then immediately after this statement, Jesus and the disciples beging baptizing people with water (John 4:1-2). This is a clear indication of how we are to interpret John 3:5.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I can't make anyone happy?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Hananiah' date='Mar 29 2004, 05:16 PM'] A bit of advice, if you don't mind. Before you use John 3:5 with a non-Catholic you should substantiate your claim that it is a reference to baptism. You can do this by appealing to context. Just prior to this statement, Jesus was baptized with water, and He recieved the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove (John 1:29-34 cf. Matthew 3:13-17). So here we have the "water" and "Spirit" mentioned in John 3:5. Then immediately after this statement, Jesus and the disciples beging baptizing people with water (John 4:1-2). This is a clear indication of how we are to interpret John 3:5. [/quote]
Ah! Hananiah, that's excellent advice. Having debated Baptismal Regeneration before with a Calvinist, they posit some sort of 'amniotic fluid' argument that the 'water' referred to in John 3:5 is actually referring to being born of the flesh - they correspond 'what is born of flesh, is flesh' with "you must be born of water", and 'what is born of Spirit is Spirit' with "you must be born of Spirit"

This approach, however, reduces that argument to foolishness. Thank you.

[quote]I prefer to say we are justified by faith, hope, and love. The crucial distinction between Catholic and Protestant theology on justification is that the Catholic Church that the virtues whereby we are justified are infused into our souls and thus become truly ours, rahter than simply being credited to our account. [/quote]

How can this be, when the Scriptures make it clear in Romans 4, and elsewhere, that it is [i]faith[/i] (but not faith alone, rather, faith that is obedient) that justifies us? Certainly, the faith that we have is coupled with works of Love, and is sustained by grace, which gives us Hope, but it is the [i]Faith[/i] that does the justifying.

[quote]The phrase "works of the law" does indeed refer to the Jewish law in toto. It includes the moral precepts of the Law as well as the ceremonial. What St. Paul does not exclude in Romans 3:27 are works of grace, which proceed from charity. If we do not have such works, even a faith strong enough to move mountains is nothing (1 COrinthians 13:2).[/quote]

Hananiah, can you elaborate on this a bit? In what way are works of the Law, different from works of grace, when they would seem pretty much the same thing, at least to an outsider?

Also, another question.

1. Romans, taken as a whole, makes it clear that even in the Old Testament, those who were saved, were saved by [i]faith[/i]. Were they, then, under the Law? In what way were they under the Law if they were saved by Faith?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]we are saved "by grace through [obedient] faith"
[/quote]

Just so that I'm not assuming too much, does the Catholic Church teach:

faith + works = salvation OR faith = salvation + works ?

Or is this too simplistic?

Edited March 31, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Bruce S]

Is anyone going to include TRENT in this thread, or are we ignoring that one?

Just to keep some balance here in this thread....

[Jake Huether]

I just thought that it was very ironic that Protestants hold "faith alone", when it was precisely a lack of faith in the Catholic Church which lead to the reformation?

[Bruce S]

[quote]I just thought that it was very ironic that Protestants hold "faith alone", when it was precisely a lack of faith in the Catholic Church which lead to the reformation?[/quote]

GOD's church existed then, and does now. Man mucked it up, it just need some redefining...

And those Reformers reformed twice, both externally, AND internally as a reaction to the exit door 1/2 of all Christians took back then.

The Catholic Church should cannonize Luther for his efforts that resulted in a much healthier Catholic Church!

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Mar 31 2004, 11:39 AM']
Just so that I'm not assuming too much, does the Catholic Church teach:

faith + works = salvation OR faith = salvation + works ?

Or is this too simplistic? [/quote]
I would think that it is a bit to simplistic.


Try:

FaithXwork = Salvation (almost like WorkXdistance= Power).

Or...

dFaith/dwork = salvation (like dx/dt = Velocity).


But I'm sure that faith and work are both on the one side of the equation. You can't say that faith produces works. Because works are a part of what defines faith. There is no faith without works (as we know).

All equations actually are inadiquate but if we look at my first analogy, I think it might work quite well...

You see: The Word of God states that each person will be judged based on his deeds. And so we can presume that the person who has produced the most works through his faith will be rewarded more than one who has produced little work through faith. This means that Salvation (or the reward) could be divided by work, which would be a good indicator of the Faith of an individual.

Faith = Salvation/work.

And then the Teacher, God, has descided what an "F" is, so that if you divide Salvation by work and get a percentage of 50 or less, then you have very little faith, and are bound for hell.


Just my observation...

[Bruce S]

Belief IN and confession TO Jesus of sins = salvation.

Works flow FROM and subsequent TO.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 31 2004, 12:51 PM']Is anyone going to include TRENT in this thread, or are we ignoring that one?

Just to keep some balance here in this thread....[/quote]
Here you go Brucey.

[quote]DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION

Proem.
Whereas there is, at this time, not without the shipwreck of many souls, and grievous detriment to the unity of the Church, a certain erroneous doctrine disseminated touching Justification; the sacred and holy, oecumenical and general Synod of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost,--the most reverend lords, Giammaria del Monte, bishop of Palaestrina, and Marcellus of the title of the Holy Cross in Jerusalem, priest, cardinals of the holy Roman Church, and legates apostolic a latere, presiding therein, in the name of our most holy father and lord in Christ, Paul III., by the providence of God, Pope,-purposes, unto the praise and glory of Almighty God, the tranquillising of the Church, and the salvation of souls, to expound to all the faithful of Christ the true and sound doctrine touching the said Justification; which (doctrine) the sun of justice, Christ Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, taught, which the apostles transmitted, and which the Catholic Church, the Holy Ghost reminding her thereof, has always retained; most strictly forbidding that any henceforth presume to believe, preach, or teach, otherwise than as by this present decree is defined and declared.


CHAPTER I.
On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.
The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary [Page 31] that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them.


CHAPTER II.
On the dispensation and mystery of Christ's advent.
Whence it came to pass, that the heavenly Father, the father of mercies and the God of all comfort, when that blessed fulness of the time was come, sent unto men, Jesus Christ, His own Son-who had been, both before the Law, and during the time of the Law, to many of the holy fathers announced and promised-that He might both redeem the Jews who were under the Law, and that the Gentiles, who followed not after justice, might attain to justice, and that all men might receive the adoption of sons. Him God hath proposed as a propitiator, through faith in his blood, for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world.


CHAPTER III.
Who are justified through Christ.
But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His [Page 32] death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just. For this benefit the apostle exhorts us, evermore to give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, and remission of sins.


CHAPTER IV.
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.


CHAPTER V.
On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds.
The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient [Page 33] grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.


CHAPTER VI.
The manner of Preparation.
Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, [Page 34] to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.


CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instru-[Page 35]mental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which [Page 36] Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.


CHAPTER VIII.
In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.
And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.


CHAPTER IX.
Against the vain confidence of Heretics.
But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ's sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither [Page 37] is this to be asserted,-that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.


CHAPTER X.
On the increase of Justification received.
Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, "Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity."

[Page 38]

CHAPTER XI.
On keeping the Commandments, and on the necessity and possibility thereof.
But no one, how much soever justified, ought to think himself exempt from the observance of the commandments; no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema,-that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified. For God commands not impossibilities, but, by commanding, both admonishes thee to do what thou are able, and to pray for what thou art not able (to do), and aids thee that thou mayest be able; whose commandments are not heavy; whose yoke is sweet and whose burthen light. For, whoso are the sons of God, love Christ; but they who love him, keep his commandments, as Himself testifies; which, assuredly, with the divine help, they can do. For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, not therefore do they cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses, is both humble and true. And for this cause, the just themselves ought to feel themselves the more obligated to walk in the way of justice, in that, being already freed from sins, but made servants of God, they are able, living soberly, justly, and godly, to proceed onwards through Jesus Christ, by whom they have had access unto this grace. For God forsakes not those who have been once justified by His grace, unless he be first forsaken by them. Wherefore, no one ought to flatter himself up with faith alone, fancying that by faith alone he is made an heir, and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ, that so he may be also glori-[Page 39]fied with him. For even Christ Himself, as the Apostle saith, Whereas he was the son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered, and being consummated, he became, to all who obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. For which cause the same Apostle admonishes the justified, saying; Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection; lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a cast-away. So also the prince of the apostles, Peter; Labour the more that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing those things, you shall not sin at any time. From which it is plain, that those are opposed to the orthodox doctrine of religion, who assert that the just man sins, venially at least, in every good work; or, which is yet more insupportable, that he merits eternal punishments; as also those who state, that the just sin in all their works, if, in those works, they, together with this aim principally that God may be gloried, have in view also the eternal reward, in order to excite their sloth, and to encourage themselves to run in the course: whereas it is written, I have inclined my heart to do all thy justifications for the reward: and, concerning Moses, the Apostle saith, that he looked unto the reward.


CHAPTER XII.
That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.
No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [Page 40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.


CHAPTER XIII.
On the gift of Perseverance.
So also as regards the gift of perseverance, of which it is written, He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved:-which gift cannot be derived from any other but Him, who is able to establish him who standeth that he stand perseveringly, and to restore him who falleth:-let no one herein promise himself any thing as certain with an absolute certainty; though all ought to place and repose a most firm hope in God's help. For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace, as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish. Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations, in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God's grace, obedient to the Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.

[Page 41]

CHAPTER XIV.
On the fallen, and their restoration.
As regards those who, by sin, have fallen from the received grace of Justification, they may be again justified, when, God exciting them, through the sacrament of Penance they shall have attained to the recovery, by the merit of Christ, of the grace lost: for this manner of Justification is of the fallen the reparation: which the holy Fathers have aptly called a second plank after the shipwreck of grace lost. For, on behalf of those who fall into sins after baptism, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance, when He said, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian, after his fall, is very different from that at (his) baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of the said sins,-at least in desire, and to be made in its season,-and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment,-which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament,-but for the temporal punishment, which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who, ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, have grieved the Holy Spirit, and have not feared to violate the temple of God. Concerning which penitence it is written; Be mindful whence thou art fallen; do penance, and do the first works. And again; The sorrow that is according to [Page 42] God worketh penance steadfast unto salvation. And again; Do penance, and bring forth fruits worthy of penance.


CHAPTER XV.
That, by every mortal sin, grace is lost, but not faith.
In opposition also to the subtle wits of certain men, who, by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent, it is to be maintained, that the received grace of Justification is lost, not only by infidelity whereby even faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin whatever, though faith be not lost; thus defending the doctrine of the divine law, which excludes from the kingdom of God not only the unbelieving, but the faithful also (who are) fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, liers with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, railers, extortioners, and all others who commit deadly sins; from which, with the help of divine grace, they can refrain, and on account of which they are separated from the grace of Christ.


CHAPTER XVI.
On the fruit of Justification, that is, on the merit of good works, and on the nature of that merit.
Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner,-whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost,-are to be set the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord; for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name; and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto [Page 43] the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: If any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting. Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own as from ourselves; nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated: for that justice which is called ours, because that we are justified from its being inherent in us, that same is (the justice) of God, because that it is infused into us of God, through the merit of Christ. Neither is this to be omitted,-that although, in the sacred writings, so much is attributed to good works, that Christ promises, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself, and not in the Lord, whose bounty towards all [Page 44] men is so great, that He will have the things which are His own gifts be their merits. And forasmuch as in many things we all offend, each one ought to have before his eyes, as well the severity and judgment, as the mercy and goodness (of God); neither ought any one to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything; because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged, not by the judgment of man, but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God, who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works. After this Catholic doctrine on Justification, which whoso receiveth not faithfully and firmly cannot be justified, it hath seemed good to the holy Synod to subjoin these canons, that all may know not only what they ought to hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun.
[/quote]

[ICTHUS]

Can I ask that Dairygirl and Bruce S please stay off of this thread? This thread is for me to figure out some of [i]my[/i] issues with the Faith which I am to be confirmed into, which have recently come up in my mind. Can I also ask that a Mod delete Bruce and Dairygirls posts, as they make the thread confusing for me in that it is no longer a q/a format, with me asking questions/clarifying issues that come up with peoples posts.

Thanks

Also, if you'd noticed, I included Trent at the beginning.

Edited March 31, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Mar 31 2004, 02:54 PM'] Also, if you'd noticed, I included Trent at the beginning. [/quote]
I don't care if you want to delete my post.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Mar 31 2004, 12:28 PM'] Ah! Hananiah, that's excellent advice. Having debated Baptismal Regeneration before with a Calvinist, they posit some sort of 'amniotic fluid' argument that the 'water' referred to in John 3:5 is actually referring to being born of the flesh - they correspond 'what is born of flesh, is flesh' with "you must be born of water", and 'what is born of Spirit is Spirit' with "you must be born of Spirit"

This approach, however, reduces that argument to foolishness. Thank you.



How can this be, when the Scriptures make it clear in Romans 4, and elsewhere, that it is [i]faith[/i] (but not faith alone, rather, faith that is obedient) that justifies us? Certainly, the faith that we have is coupled with works of Love, and is sustained by grace, which gives us Hope, but it is the [i]Faith[/i] that does the justifying.



Hananiah, can you elaborate on this a bit? In what way are works of the Law, different from works of grace, when they would seem pretty much the same thing, at least to an outsider?

Also, another question.

1. Romans, taken as a whole, makes it clear that even in the Old Testament, those who were saved, were saved by [i]faith[/i]. Were they, then, under the Law? In what way were they under the Law if they were saved by Faith? [/quote]

Can I refer you guys to my previous questions, before our resident anti-Catholics showed up? Also, I was serious about a mod deleting Bruce's and dairygirls posts..

Edited April 1, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Apr 1 2004, 12:53 PM']
Can I refer you guys to my previous questions, before our resident anti-Catholics showed up? Also, I was serious about a mod deleting Bruce's and dairygirls posts.. [/quote]
I would think that having faith in God would lead one to DO exactly as he commands. It's not like we can live outside the law, and at the same time say we have faith in God.


If my dad says, "don't touch that hot stove, or you'll burn yourself". Then I should have faith in what he says. How can I have faith, and then touch the hot stove? Unless I have some sort of fetish for pain, if I truly have faith in what my dad says, then I will KNOW that the stove will burn me.

But then on the same token, I could also NOT have faith in what my dad says, but still NOT touch the stove (for whatever reason - like disinterest or something). That is what Christ was always mad at the Pharisees for. They had no faith in God, yet they bound themselves under the law for prestige and honor on earth.


So you see. One can do works without faith. But there is no way one can have faith without works. We say that we are not "bound" by the Law when we have faith in Christ. But this is simply because we naturally, in faith, obey the law. It isn't binding really because we WAN'T to do it. To be bound by something is to do something against your will. That is what Paul speaks of. He's not saying that we are exempt from the Law. Rather, we live the law according to our faith. It becomes our will. It becomes less of a burden than living outside the law.