My Objections To The Catholic Faith, #2

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Apr 1 2004, 01:53 PM'] Can I refer you guys to my previous questions, before our resident anti-Catholics showed up? Also, I was serious about a mod deleting Bruce's and dairygirls posts.. [/quote]
icthus,

their posts can't be deleted b/c they didn't break any of the rules. plus, this is interfaith dialogue, so they have the right to post. so, if you would like a dialogue w/o their input, u have two options:

--start a new thread, state in the subject that you only want to dialogue w/ one person
--message someone privately, or obtain the IM or MSN screen name and chat w/ that person

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Hananiah]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Mar 31 2004, 12:28 PM'] Ah! Hananiah, that's excellent advice. Having debated Baptismal Regeneration before with a Calvinist, they posit some sort of 'amniotic fluid' argument that the 'water' referred to in John 3:5 is actually referring to being born of the flesh - they correspond 'what is born of flesh, is flesh' with "you must be born of water", and 'what is born of Spirit is Spirit' with "you must be born of Spirit"

This approach, however, reduces that argument to foolishness. Thank you. [/quote]
You're welcome. By the way, congratulations on your Confirmation. I'll be getting Confirmed this Easter Vigil too.

[quote]How can this be, when the Scriptures make it clear in Romans 4, and elsewhere, that it is [i]faith[/i] (but not faith alone, rather, faith that is obedient) that justifies us? Certainly, the faith that we have is coupled with works of Love, and is sustained by grace, which gives us Hope, but it is the [i]Faith[/i] that does the justifying.[/quote]
I'd say rather that it is God that does the justifying. Remember, Catholics read the word "justify" as "simultaneously make and declare righteous," as opposed to Protestants who define it solely as "declare righteous." So, in the Catholic definition of the word, any action by God wherein He infuses a theological virtue into a human person can properly be called justification. So when God grants us the grace of faith, that is justification. When He pours His love into our hearts, that is justification. When He performs a work of charity through us (1 Cor 15:10), that is justification. Faith is obviously the first virtue which God must infuse into His elect, since without faith it is impossible to please Him and all other theological virtues are impossible, so this is why the majority of Biblical passages pertaining to justification mention only faith. However, there are many passages that mention other instruments of justification as well (e.g. 1 Corinthians 13:2, James 2:24), and also many passages which characterise eternal life as the reward for works (e.g. Romans 2:5-11).

[quote]Hananiah, can you elaborate on this a bit? In what way are works of the Law, different from works of grace, when they would seem pretty much the same thing, at least to an outsider?[/quote]
The Law is an impersonal, legal system which one would have to obey perfectly if one wished to be saved under it (Galatians 3:10-12, James 2:10), since legal systems have no power to forgive sins. If one attempts to approach God through such a system one will always find oneself in debt. On the other hand, if one approaches God as an adopted son through faith in Jesus Christ, God will be willing to look past one's faults and see one's works as meritorious.

[quote]Also, another question.

1. Romans, taken as a whole, makes it clear that even in the Old Testament, those who were saved, were saved by [i]faith[/i]. Were they, then, under the Law? In what way were they under the Law if they were saved by Faith?[/quote]
The Bible makes it clear that the Old Testament saints were saved in the same way as those of the New, namely by grace. They may have observed the Law, but they would have known that they were not thereby justified, and that they could not hope to make it past the judgment seat of God unless they trusted in His mercy and obeyed Him out of love.

[ICTHUS]

Hananiah

[quote name='Previously' date=' I']How can this be, when the Scriptures make it clear in Romans 4, and elsewhere, that it is faith (but not faith alone, rather, faith that is obedient) that justifies us? Certainly, the faith that we have is coupled with works of Love, and is sustained by grace, which gives us Hope, but it is the Faith that does the justifying.[/quote]

[quote]I'd say rather that it is God that does the justifying. Remember, Catholics read the word "justify" as "simultaneously make and declare righteous," as opposed to Protestants who define it solely as "declare righteous." So, in the Catholic definition of the word, any action by God wherein He infuses a theological virtue into a human person can properly be called justification. So when God grants us the grace of faith, that is justification. When He pours His love into our hearts, that is justification. When He performs a work of charity through us (1 Cor 15:10), that is justification. Faith is obviously the first virtue which God must infuse into His elect, since without faith it is impossible to please Him and all other theological virtues are impossible, so this is why the majority of Biblical passages pertaining to justification mention only faith. However, there are many passages that mention other instruments of justification as well (e.g. 1 Corinthians 13:2, James 2:24), and also many passages which characterise eternal life as the reward for works (e.g. Romans 2:5-11).[/quote] But faith is then, not the only instrument whereby we are justified? I tend to think of the works and hope as 'piggybacking' on the back of Faith. I suppose we're discussing semantics, but I think it's important to emphasize and hold to justification by FAITH, since doing otherwise could lead to the understanding that works or hope by themselves could justify.

[Hananiah]

I think the Catholic Church is very clear that without faith it is impossible to please God, hence there can be no justification by hope or love without faith.

Edited April 6, 2004 by Hananiah

[ICTHUS]

I tend to think of hope and love as 'piggybacking' on the back of Faith - it's the faith that justifies us, hope and love necessarily complete the saving faith.

[cmotherofpirl]

Faith is the root, hope is the tree, and love is the fruit.