Question #3

[p0lar_bear]

[quote]* loving and worshipping God
*praying
*fasting
*loving one's neighbor
*obeying the commandments
*practicing self-renunciation
*bearing witness to the Catholic faith
[/quote]

Didn't Jesus Himself require all these things of His followers? How then can you condemn the Church for expecting the faithful to do these things>

[quote]*following supernatural inspiration in deeds[/quote]

Umm, not quite sure what you mean by this, but if you are referring to the benefit of good works...In the parable of the sheep and goats, Jesus sent away the goats precisely because they did not do good works. Again, how is the Church not following Jesus on this?

[quote]*confessing the major doctrines of the Church[/quote]

Didn't Jesus, Paul, and John all warn against false teachers? Confessing the doctrines of the Church is assenting to the truth and avoiding false teaching.



Also, yes, the RCIA can be a long process, but there is a reason for that. Before we baptize someone (or accept them into full communion), we want to make sure that they know what they are doing, what they are assenting to. Some people come to RCIA knowing very little about the faith. Isn't it our responsibility to teach them? Wouldn't we be doing them a great disservice to refuse to explain to them the truths of the faith? If they are going to be part of the Church, they need to know what it is they are joining.

The list you provided applies not only to those seeking to join the Church, they are the responsibility of all Christians. In initiating people into the Church, she not only teaches them the facts they need to know, but also what it means to live this life. We teach them how to pray, the importance of fasting and penance, how to recognize and follow God's will, and how to live the life of charity that Christ Himself called us to.

It's not that the Church is saying "you have to do xyz before we will let you be a Christian." Rather, She is saying, "this is what it means to be a Christian, this is how we are called to live."

Just as a mother teachs her child not only facts of history and mathematics, but also how to treat people, good manners, the importance of cleaning your room, etc., so the Church is concerned with forming the whole person, with helping them to live a truly Christian life rather than tossing a book at them and making them figure it all out themselves.

[ICTHUS]

So - the man in the ocean is alive? How can this be? Scripture indicates otherwise, of course.

[url="http://www.geocities.com/joyfullyserving/Essays/depravity.html"]http://www.geocities.com/joyfullyserving/E.../depravity.html[/url]

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Didn't Jesus Himself require all these things of His followers? How then can you condemn the Church for expecting the faithful to do these things[/quote]

we are called to do those things by the Lord:

[quote]YET the person seeking justification must work hard and long "several years if necessary"(Rites of the Catholic Church...vol1 p71). The R.C.I.A requires candidates to demonstrate their conversion by acts of:

* loving and worshipping God
*praying
*fasting
*loving one's neighbor
*practicing self-renunciation
*obeying the commandments
*bearing witness to the Catholic faith
*following supernatural inspiration in deeds
*confessing the major doctrines of the Church

Telling a person who actually has met all these requirements that justification is a free, unmerited gift would be meaningless.[/quote]

but these things are REQUIRED of the Catholic Church BEFORE you can be justified. if all these things are needed to be justified, how can you say it is a gift? please, read the WHOLE post.


[quote]In the parable of the sheep and goats, Jesus sent away the goats precisely because they did not do good works. Again, how is the Church not following Jesus on this?[/quote]

and in the parable of sheep and goats, do you remember what the goats said? "Did we not do X, Y, and Z in YOUR name?" so they did works, thinking that it was what the Lord wanted. God does NOT want our works to "show" faith. He wants our FAITH TO BE shown thru our works. We are doing good works BECAUSE we're going to heaven, not in order TO GET TO heaven.

[quote]Also, yes, the RCIA can be a long process, but there is a reason for that. Before we baptize someone (or accept them into full communion), we want to make sure that they know what they are doing, what they are assenting to. Some people come to RCIA knowing very little about the faith. Isn't it our responsibility to teach them? Wouldn't we be doing them a great disservice to refuse to explain to them the truths of the faith? If they are going to be part of the Church, they need to know what it is they are joining.[/quote]

indoctrinating a young believer is fine...but how many times does it list John the baptist indoctrinating anyone he bapitsed.

ONE OTHER THING:

Why didn't JESUS baptize anyone if baptizm is NECESSARY for salvation?

[ICTHUS]

[quote]but these things are REQUIRED of the Catholic Church BEFORE you can be justified. if all these things are needed to be justified, how can you say it is a gift? please, read the WHOLE post.[/quote]

Yes - justification is conferred in Baptism. These things you mentioned above are merely the Lord, through His Church, preparing the person to receive Baptism. I don't see the grounds for your objection, unless I'm missing something.

[quote]
and in the parable of sheep and goats, do you remember what the goats said? "Did we not do X, Y, and Z in YOUR name?" so they did works, thinking that it was what the Lord wanted. God does NOT want our works to "show" faith. He wants our FAITH TO BE shown thru our works. We are doing good works BECAUSE we're going to heaven, not in order TO GET TO heaven.[/quote] We agree with this! The works we do are not an attempt to earn Heaven, they are done in loving obedience to the will of the Father.

As for the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, I assume you're referring to Matt 25?

[quote]When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." [/quote]

I see nothing here that even remotely says what you said above. ("did we not do x, y, and z in Your name")

[quote]indoctrinating a young believer is fine...but how many times does it list John the baptist indoctrinating anyone he bapitsed. [/quote]

It doesn't, but note the following.

Matt 28:16-20

[color=blue]Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [b]19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and [u]teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you[/u]. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." [/b][/color]

[quote]ONE OTHER THING:

Why didn't JESUS baptize anyone if baptizm is NECESSARY for salvation? [/quote]

He had HIMSELF baptised to 'fulfil all righteousness' - also, he affirms (Jn 3:5) that baptism is necessary for salvation.

Baptismal regeneration is the logical conclusion of this passage, taken in its context of Jesus' baptism and the Spirit descending on Him like a dove - just as it does on the Baptised person.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 4 2004, 07:15 PM'] and in the parable of sheep and goats, do you remember what the goats said? "Did we not do X, Y, and Z in YOUR name?" so they did works, thinking that it was what the Lord wanted. God does NOT want our works to "show" faith. He wants our FAITH TO BE shown thru our works. We are doing good works BECAUSE we're going to heaven, not in order TO GET TO heaven. [/quote]
Read the whole parable. The reason the goats did not go to heaven was not because they lacked faith, but because they did not do enough works. They didn't feed the hungry, cloth the naked, tend for the sick, etc. Most likley the works they did do were devoid of charity, and hence worthless (1 Cor 13:2).

[ICTHUS]

Could I ask someone to reply to my 'total depravity' argument? If we presuppose that man is spiritually dead, how can he in any way contribute to, or even resist, being put in the sling and brought up into the helicopter?

I don't see how you can posit that the man holds out his hand to the rescuer, unless you prove that man is not, in fact, totally spiritually dead due to original sin.

[Hananiah]

Look at the example of Cornelius. He was an unregenerate half-Jew, yet God was pleased with his works and because of them made sure he met up with an apostle (St. Peter).

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Hananiah' date='Apr 5 2004, 07:38 PM'] Look at the example of Cornelius. He was an unregenerate half-Jew, yet God was pleased with his works and because of them made sure he met up with an apostle (St. Peter). [/quote]
But did God select him because of any previous merit on his part?

I would argue that in fact Cornelius was not in fact totally unregenerate, but was operating under the influence of actual grace calling him to follow God.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Apr 6 2004, 07:39 PM'] But did God select him because of any previous merit on his part? [/quote]
No. Nothing, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification.

[quote]I would argue that in fact Cornelius was not in fact totally unregenerate, but was operating under the influence of actual grace calling him to follow God.[/quote]
And I would agree.

As I understand totla depravity, it teaches that one is incapable of performing a work which is truly good and pleasing to God prior to regeneration. The Catholic Church teaches that, prior to regeneration, one can perform naturally good actions and, under the influence of actual grace, supernaturally good actions, but not meritorious actions, since God's promises of rewards for works (Matt 5:12, 6:3-4, 16:27, 25:34 et seq., Luke 6:35, 14:13-14, Rom 2:6, 1 Cor 3:8, Eph 6:8, 2 Tim 4:6-8) apply only to His adopted sons.

[ICTHUS]

Okay, this is granted to you, Hananiah, but going back to the man in the ocean analogy for a second.....

Scripture would seem to indicate that in this analogy, the man in the ocean is dead and cannot so much as reach out his hand to be pulled into the sling. I see no way to Biblically argue with this...

[Donna]

Can't God resurrect even the dead?

I'm sure Haniniah knows more about another layer of meaning for the resurrection of Lazerus, than I do.

[ICTHUS]

Donna,

God can resurrect the dead, that isn't what I'm arguing against at all. What I'm questioning is whether or not the dead can resist being brought back to life, or can play any part whatsoever in bringing themselves back to life. The Catholic Church would seem to say yes.

Edited April 8, 2004 by ICTHUS

[DojoGrant]

ICTHUS,

Are you implying a belief in predestination to the effect that God saves some and damns others, for the simple reason that he has chosen to do so?

After all, we have all fallen. No one of us deserves Heaven. If there is no response from man, than God simply damns some because He wishes to beaver dam some, and saves others simply because He wishes to save others.

What is personal acceptance if not a human response to the grace of God? What is "acceptance of Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior" but a response of the human will? God does not physically move your mouth to say the words or force your heart to agree with the Truth.

What I'm saying is that in reformed theology, there is still a human response, however grace-laiden it may be, that leads to "salvation." Otherwise, without this human response, the person must have either been saved all along or incapable of knowing when they were saved (which goes against what reformed theology states).

Therefore, in Catholic theology, as has already been stated, man is moved to accept God through the grace of God. However dead he may be, the move to conversion is of God. We have divine providence and free will working hand in hand. By the grace of God, man can choose God.

[ICTHUS]

So, therefore, the 'drowning man' analogy is inept because the spiritually dead man is given the ability to choose grace, by grace?

[quote]Are you implying a belief in predestination to the effect that God saves some and damns others, for the simple reason that he has chosen to do so?[/quote] I believe, with St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, that God unconditionally elects those who will attain eternal Bliss, yes.

Edited April 8, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Hananiah]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Apr 8 2004, 09:27 AM'] So, therefore, the 'drowning man' analogy is inept because the spiritually dead man is given the ability to choose grace, by grace? [/quote]
That sounds right. We are given, by actual grace, the ability to choose sanctifying grace.

[quote]I believe, with St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, that God unconditionally elects those who will attain eternal Bliss, yes.[/quote]
Hey, there's not too many Thomists left in the Church these days. It'll be nice to have some company.

[ICTHUS]

So, if you had to formulate an analogy to explain Catholic (Thomist?) soteriology of how God resurrects the spiritually dead man, how would you do so?

[Donna]

Eh, sorry to muck up the waters, but my point, Icthus, was that you'd said (last page) that the man was dead (that is, unable to cooperate w/ grace).

In this instance, God can also resurrect (or move, or dispose the soul to being moved) the deadened will, or that which makes the dead unable to cooperate.

He courts us. We respond, or not.

His is always the first move.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Apr 8 2004, 03:25 PM'] So, if you had to formulate an analogy to explain Catholic (Thomist?) soteriology of how God resurrects the spiritually dead man, how would you do so? [/quote]
Thomist soteriology is Catholic soteriology. [i]How[/i] God saves the dead is an issue that all Catholics agree upon. Where we are free to disagree is whether His decision of who to save is conditioned on foreseen merits or not.

Perhaps an appropriate analogy would be that, through actual grace, God gives the unregenerate man temporary spiritual life; long enough for him to make a free decision whether to embrace permanent (unless lost through mortal sin) spiritual life (sanctifying grace).

[ICTHUS]

So you would posit some form of prevenient grace? This sounds like Arminianism...

[Hananiah]

Prevenient grace is Catholic teaching.