Donna Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Can't God resurrect even the dead? I'm sure Haniniah knows more about another layer of meaning for the resurrection of Lazerus, than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 (edited) Donna, God can resurrect the dead, that isn't what I'm arguing against at all. What I'm questioning is whether or not the dead can resist being brought back to life, or can play any part whatsoever in bringing themselves back to life. The Catholic Church would seem to say yes. Edited April 8, 2004 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DojoGrant Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 ICTHUS, Are you implying a belief in predestination to the effect that God saves some and damns others, for the simple reason that he has chosen to do so? After all, we have all fallen. No one of us deserves Heaven. If there is no response from man, than God simply damns some because He wishes to beaver dam some, and saves others simply because He wishes to save others. What is personal acceptance if not a human response to the grace of God? What is "acceptance of Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior" but a response of the human will? God does not physically move your mouth to say the words or force your heart to agree with the Truth. What I'm saying is that in reformed theology, there is still a human response, however grace-laiden it may be, that leads to "salvation." Otherwise, without this human response, the person must have either been saved all along or incapable of knowing when they were saved (which goes against what reformed theology states). Therefore, in Catholic theology, as has already been stated, man is moved to accept God through the grace of God. However dead he may be, the move to conversion is of God. We have divine providence and free will working hand in hand. By the grace of God, man can choose God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 (edited) So, therefore, the 'drowning man' analogy is inept because the spiritually dead man is given the ability to choose grace, by grace? [quote]Are you implying a belief in predestination to the effect that God saves some and damns others, for the simple reason that he has chosen to do so?[/quote] I believe, with St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, that God unconditionally elects those who will attain eternal Bliss, yes. Edited April 8, 2004 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Apr 8 2004, 09:27 AM'] So, therefore, the 'drowning man' analogy is inept because the spiritually dead man is given the ability to choose grace, by grace? [/quote] That sounds right. We are given, by actual grace, the ability to choose sanctifying grace. [quote]I believe, with St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, that God unconditionally elects those who will attain eternal Bliss, yes.[/quote] Hey, there's not too many Thomists left in the Church these days. It'll be nice to have some company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 So, if you had to formulate an analogy to explain Catholic (Thomist?) soteriology of how God resurrects the spiritually dead man, how would you do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Eh, sorry to muck up the waters, but my point, Icthus, was that you'd said (last page) that the man was dead (that is, unable to cooperate w/ grace). In this instance, God can also resurrect (or move, or dispose the soul to being moved) the deadened will, or that which makes the dead unable to cooperate. He courts us. We respond, or not. His is always the first move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Apr 8 2004, 03:25 PM'] So, if you had to formulate an analogy to explain Catholic (Thomist?) soteriology of how God resurrects the spiritually dead man, how would you do so? [/quote] Thomist soteriology is Catholic soteriology. [i]How[/i] God saves the dead is an issue that all Catholics agree upon. Where we are free to disagree is whether His decision of who to save is conditioned on foreseen merits or not. Perhaps an appropriate analogy would be that, through actual grace, God gives the unregenerate man temporary spiritual life; long enough for him to make a free decision whether to embrace permanent (unless lost through mortal sin) spiritual life (sanctifying grace). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 So you would posit some form of prevenient grace? This sounds like Arminianism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 Prevenient grace is Catholic teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted April 18, 2004 Share Posted April 18, 2004 The article "By Grace Alone" here might help you. [url="http://www.lumengentleman.com/index.asp"]http://www.lumengentleman.com/index.asp[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 ICTHUS, prevenient grace is a truth I have experienced. Else I'd still be dating the gods, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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