Should Heretics Be Burned?

[MichaelF]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1895450' date='Jun 18 2009, 07:07 PM']I think the answer in these times is no. Although if the answer is yes then abortion doctors should be burned also if they dont stop what they are doing.[/quote]


Actually, no. Check the definition of heretic.

They're just run-of-the-mill childkillers.

Edited June 18, 2009 by MichaelF

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

This is an interesting topic. It is one I hope to bring forward in dialogue locally with some of the Priests when I visit the local Catholic Church.

I hope we can continue this in honored respect as it can be a touchy situation regarding times when things were more violent and it was a survival time in history, where ideologies followed through meant existence and often time people were killed over dialogue. Death was common and around everyone in those days of old. Human life was respected, but could easily be taken in those times by all fronts. This is what I understand, and as people lived it was common to find people not living past 35. Only until the 20th Century do we find people giving more respect for life, and death was less common, if not eliminated out of some peoples lives until they reached much older ages. We fail to remember how it was.

[OraProMe]

If I was still trying to justify my homosexuality I'd say that the papal approval of burning heretics at the stake is a great example of cultural based Catholicism. Something which arose out of the political climate rather than any real religious reasons.

Maybe that's how we can explain away the taking of human life in such a disgusting, painful way........

Sorry, but if Exsurge Domine qualifies as infallible then I'm a heretic, and proud to be one.

Edited June 19, 2009 by OraProMe

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1895831' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:43 AM']Sorry, but if Exsurge Domine qualifies as infallible then I'm a heretic, and proud to be one.[/quote]

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='MichaelF' post='1895363' date='Jun 18 2009, 02:54 PM']Luke 22:36 [color="#FF0000"]"But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
[/color][/quote]

What was done with one of the two sword swords that were deemed enough?

Luk 22:50 [color="#000080"]And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear. [/color]

And what did Jesus do?

Luk 22:51 [color="#000080"]And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him. [/color]

Jesus gave the apostles a lesson in exactly the verse that I quoted, that you seem to have thought was contradicted by the verse you replied with.
He taught them how to love their enemies:

Luk 6:27 [color="#000080"]But I say unto you which hear, [b]Love your enemies[/b], do good to them which hate you, [/color]

[quote name='MichaelF' post='1895363' date='Jun 18 2009, 02:54 PM']Matthew 10:34 [color="#FF0000"]"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword." [/color]

Missed those verses, did we?[/quote]

No I didn't miss those verses at all.
You don't seem to understand what sword Jesus is speaking of:

Eph 6:17 [color="#000080"]And take the helmet of salvation, and the [b]sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God[/b]: [/color]

Hbr 4:12 [color="#000080"][b]For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword[/b], piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [/color]

Rev 2:16 [color="#000080"]Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with [b]the sword of my mouth.[/b][/color]

Edited June 19, 2009 by PeteWaldo

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1895138' date='Jun 18 2009, 07:52 AM']If, during the Middle Ages when prisons weren't as great as they are now, a violent band of murderders who could not be contained in a prison went all through the country murdering citizens daily, do you think it would contrary to Christian charity for the State to execute such men?[/quote]

Folks were killed for preaching the Gospel and denying transubstantiation and such, not for being "a violent band of murderders".

1John 3:15 [color="#000080"]Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. [/color]

Edited June 19, 2009 by PeteWaldo

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1895866' date='Jun 19 2009, 06:01 AM']Folks were killed for preaching the Gospel and denying transubstantiation and such, not for being "a violent band of murderders".

1John 3:15 [color="#000080"]Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. [/color][/quote]

Nobody was killed for preaching the Gospel.

[Patrick]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1895873' date='Jun 19 2009, 07:05 AM']Nobody was killed for preaching the Gospel.[/quote]

From [i]a[/i] Protestant viewpoint (having once been a Protestant, this was my view), those "heretics" in the Reformation were seeing excessive Catholic practices (such as indulgences and burning people for their heresy) as unbiblical. Preaching the Bible against these practices puts the Protestant at odds with the Catholic church and they are deemed "heretics", and put to death as such. Thereby, they were put to death for preaching the Gospel.

Thus, Protestants hold a memory of persecution by Catholics from the Reformation similar to Orthodox remembering the 4th Crusade. Orthodox have at least received some form of papal apology. Have there been any papal apologies to Protestants for the persecutions the Catholic Church imposed? How much more they are needed! It is arguable that the 4th Crusade was accidental and that the See of Rome did not intend to attack Constantinople and worse. Whereas the attack upon Protestants was deliberate and intentional.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Patrick

[Don John of Austria]

That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit

Error 33 of Exsurge Domine.

Yes it would be an error to say that it is agianst the will of the Spirit to burn heretics.

That [b][i]does not [/i][/b] translate to " all heretics should be burned."


That said the Catholic Church did condone the burning of Heretics by the secular authorities in the past. It would be an error to attribute such action as decidedly incorrect. The Church, and many popes for centuries declared that indeed it was the will of God that some heretics be put to death for their crimes agianst man and God. That said, the Church almost always plead for mercy to the secular authority.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896008' date='Jun 19 2009, 12:52 PM']From [i]a[/i] Protestant viewpoint (having once been a Protestant, this was my view), those "heretics" in the Reformation were seeing excessive Catholic practices (such as indulgences and burning people for their heresy) as unbiblical. Preaching the Bible against these practices puts the Protestant at odds with the Catholic church and they are deemed "heretics", and put to death as such. Thereby, they were put to death for preaching the Gospel.

Thus, Protestants hold a memory of persecution by Catholics from the Reformation similar to Orthodox remembering the 4th Crusade. Orthodox have at least received some form of papal apology. Have there been any papal apologies to Protestants for the persecutions the Catholic Church imposed? How much more they are needed! It is arguable that the 4th Crusade was accidental and that the See of Rome did not intend to attack Constantinople and worse. Whereas the attack upon Protestants was deliberate and intentional.[/quote]


Why would the Church appologize for the protection of the Church fromn those who would destroy Her?

The Protestants by the way did plenty of killing of Catholics, far mor Catholic lives were lost in persecusion by Protestants than the other way around. Take a look at Elizabeth, she killed quite literally millions of Irish Catholics and tens if not hundreds of thousands of English Catholics. That is just in one not particularly impressive Country.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896107' date='Jun 19 2009, 05:16 PM']That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit
Error 33 of Exsurge Domine.
Yes it would be an error to say that it is agianst the will of the Spirit to burn heretics.
That [b][i]does not [/i][/b] translate to " all heretics should be burned."[/quote]
I thought you were a legend?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1895873' date='Jun 19 2009, 08:05 AM']Nobody was killed for preaching the Gospel.[/quote]


Agreed

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1896110' date='Jun 19 2009, 04:20 PM']I thought you were a legend?[/quote]


I am.


But thank you.






( seriously.... I have been too busy to spend time here.... I can't just drop by at phatmass, it consumes me. I have 10 days until my schedule opens up a bit.... I will try to be by more then.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896111' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:21 PM']Agreed[/quote]

If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I was only trying to explain why Protestants might feel that way. Of course Catholics don't think so.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896107' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:16 PM']That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit

Error 33 of Exsurge Domine.

Yes it would be an error to say that it is agianst the will of the Spirit to burn heretics.

That [b][i]does not [/i][/b] translate to " all heretics should be burned."[/quote]

Did I say "all"?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896113' date='Jun 19 2009, 04:26 PM']If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I was only trying to explain why Protestants might feel that way. Of course Catholics don't think so.[/quote]


I was agreeing to T-Bones response to "people were killed for preaching the Gospel.



And I read your post pretty carefully. I stand by mine. Why should the Church appologize for trying to defend Herself and the Faithful from the horrors of Protestantism? Even thinking about it makes me queezy.

The 4th Crusade is certianly not analgous, they were excommunicated for attacking fellow Christians when they should have ben defending them from the Moslems.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896115' date='Jun 19 2009, 04:30 PM']Did I say "all"?[/quote]


No. I didn't say you did... just clarifying the error. You asked a question about an listed errror in a Papal Bull, I answered it. However, in order to prevent scandal I thought it necessary to make sure to say what I did.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896117' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:31 PM']I was agreeing to T-Bones response to "people were killed for preaching the Gospel.

And I read your post pretty carefully. I stand by mine.[/quote]

Fair enough. I mistook clarification for reaction then.

[quote]Why should the Church appologize for trying to defend Herself and the Faithful from the horrors of Protestantism? Even thinking about it makes me queezy.[/quote]

You're arguing intention when I'm disputing means.

[quote]The 4th Crusade is certianly not analgous, they were excommunicated for attacking fellow Christians when they should have ben defending them from the Moslems.[/quote]

The only intended connection between the two is that they are both actions perceived as atrocities condoned by the Roman Catholic Church. From there, the analogy breaks down, because the 4th Crusade was in actuality not condoned.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896108' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:19 PM']The Protestants by the way did plenty of killing of Catholics, far mor Catholic lives were lost in persecusion by Protestants than the other way around.[/quote]

For which, I would hope, they would also apologize.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896124' date='Jun 19 2009, 05:44 PM']For which, I would hope, they would also apologize.[/quote]

Who would appologize? Which branch of Lutheranism? The Church of England? The English monarch? Whoever the closest lineal decendent of Elizabeth is?

Are they going to apologize for destroying Christendom and leading millions of souls away from the Church " Outside of whom there is no Salvation!"

The Catholic Church is expected to appologize because, being the True Church she endures. Protestantism is too fragmented and unstable to hold anyone organization responsable, that is why no one does, not to mention that the Elizabeth I is still held up as a great and wonderful leader who defended her country from those Savage Catholics. No even if there was someone who could apologize no one seems to think an apology is needed.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Don John of Austria