Should Heretics Be Burned?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1901440' date='Jun 25 2009, 05:50 PM']That is somewhat similar to the view that Islam takes. No non-Muslim is innocent.
[color="#2E8B57"] I know Islam preety well , and I assure you I am no friend to it. But I think you misunderstand islam quite a bit. For starters, Islam is just Chirstian Heresy (Arianism with a twist)) that got out of hand. Muslims do not really believe in innocence the way Chirstians do, so it is not really a good comparison[/color]
Well put!


"Just as..." spanking your son?
Through a Roman Catholic view, when [color="#2E8B57"]one executes [/color]a heretic[color="#2E8B57"], (you seem to have a problem with terminology so I thought I would correct it for you)[/color] aren't you condemning him to hell for eternity by killing him while he is in a state, that you yourself believe, to be outside the grace of God?
[color="#2E8B57"] Not necessarly, I have no idea of the individual fates of anyone. I know that Heresy leads one to Hell, just as raping children leads one to Hell, I do not know the individual fate of individual heritics anymore than I know the Fate of individual child- rapist. The Father determines your fate, not me. Many Heretics recanted again and recieved the Sacrements, some might of made a perfect act o Contrition, some may have been mentally unbalanced and not culpable. I make no claim as to who does and does not go to perdition. I think if you die as a Formal Heretic you will go to Hell, I do not know who that does or does not apply to. [/color]

Surely you're not suggesting that is "just as" spanking your son?
[color="#2E8B57"]Punishment for offenses is just. Spanking my son has both punitive and teaching applications. Execution of a Heretic probably has little teaching effect to him, though it might indeed have such an effect on others.[/color]

So because of what you believe, for example your misunderstanding of the parable discussed here, you send Bob to, what you believe to be perdition, for an eternity?
[color="#2E8B57"]Except I do not misunderstand the Parable above. I or any human send no one to Hell. That is the Father's perogative. I might indeed send him to his particular Judgement. [/color]

Your love for those in error is manifest by killing them?
[color="#2E8B57"]My love for the innoocent may be manifested in killing the guilty particularly if the Guilty insist on continuing to Harm the innocent. I do not concider violent action even lethal action , to b\e inherintly unloving, perhpaps the fear of death will cause a act of perfect contrition? Regardless, the secular authority is obliged to protect people. In the past the Secular authority realized that the souls protection was part of that duty, I see little differance between a heretic who activly preaches his heresy and a murderer, accept that a murderer only seeks to destroy the body a heretic seeks to destroy the soul. [/color]

Jhn 8:7 [color="#000080"]So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, [b]He that is without sin among you,[/b] let him first cast a stone at her. [/color]

And send you to perdition for ever for your error?

[color="#2E8B57"]Answered this already, twice![/color]

Indeed you don't.

Just as in Islam. Did you ever wonder if it's because of the same reason that Muslims that come to Christ are killed?
That men resort to taking matters into their own hands physically, when they find themselves helplessly disarmed against the Sword of the Spirit?
[color="#008000"]So you do not believe that men should ever take things into there hand physically? Are you a universal pacifist? If someone was raping your mother, wife, daughter, sister, in front of you would you stand there and let them so it? If not then why, do you not trust that the Spirit could change these mens minds, convert them, make them understand the sin that they commit? You think Heresy is some how differant, the problem is, it is not.

If you are a universal pacifist, then that is a differant issue. I respect that position, but I do nto agree it is the only Christian one. [/color]

Come on my friend. We are talking about several centuries of this stuff. Or are you now going to join those that try and excuse this away as the work of some "secular authority" as if unguided by the Roman Catholic Church?

[color="#2E8B57"]I need excuse nothing, The Church tried people in eccesiastical court and if found guilty they turned them over to secular authority for punishment. I don''t think anything was done wrong. My only complaint about the burning of Heretics is they didn't get Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. The Germanic and French Inquisitors were obviously slackers.[/[/color]quote]

Edited June 25, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Patrick]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1901460' date='Jun 25 2009, 04:09 PM']I am wondering something, PeteWaldo, Are you a neo-Waldensian?[/quote]

Say yes say yes! They want to show their "love" for you.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1901481' date='Jun 25 2009, 06:33 PM']Say yes say yes! They want to show their "love" for you. [/quote]


Smart Aleck

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901486' date='Jun 25 2009, 04:36 PM']Smart Aleck[/quote]

Would you expect him to answer "yes" given the context?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1901497' date='Jun 25 2009, 06:43 PM']Would you expect him to answer "yes" given the context?[/quote]


Yes actually. Even if he isn't. It would stir the pot more and he seems to like that.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1901497' date='Jun 25 2009, 05:43 PM']Would you expect him to answer "yes" given the context?[/quote]

Why would he not, if it is true?

[Patrick]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1901508' date='Jun 25 2009, 04:56 PM']Why would he not, if it is true?[/quote]

Well, for one thing, notice that he, as many other Protestants, list their religion as simply "Christian" instead of acknowledging their affiliation to a particular tradition.

But for two, even what with assurances that the Catholic Church, for whatever reason, doesn't act in this way toward heretics these days, in the context of having just talked about the burning of the founder of that line, your question could be seen or felt as calling him out, and as being somewhat aggressive.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1901517' date='Jun 25 2009, 06:04 PM']Well, for one thing, notice that he, as many other Protestants, list their religion as simply "Christian" instead of acknowledging their affiliation to a particular tradition.

But for two, even what with assurances that the Catholic Church, for whatever reason, doesn't act in this way toward heretics these days, in the context of having just talked about the burning of the founder of that line, your question could be seen or felt as calling him out, and as being somewhat aggressive.[/quote]

I have no problem being aggressive.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1901519' date='Jun 25 2009, 06:11 PM']I have no problem being aggressive.[/quote]
Understatement of the [s]day[/s]
[s]week[/s]
[s]month[/s]
[s]year[/s]
century.

[Resurrexi]

[Kitty]

I love religion. It's a good excuse to kill people.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1901606' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:16 PM']I love religion. It's a good excuse to kill people.[/quote]


Yeah, its a shame nothing else is worth killing over isn't it. I mean, no one has ever been killed over land, or money, or taxes, or sex, or "rights", or because they were a rotten piece of refuse, or becuase they were the wrong race, or the wrong ideaology, or they married someone of the wrong class, or they resisted those in power, or they were in power and were resisted effectivly or any other of numerous reasons, Religion is the only reason people ever kill anyone else. Isn't it grand.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Kitty]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901616' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:25 PM']Religion is the only reason people ever kill anyone else.[/quote]

Did I say that?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901616' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:25 PM']Yeah, its a shame nothing else is worth killing over isn't it. I mean, no one has ever been killed over land, or money, or taxes, or sex, or "rights", or because they were a rotten piece of refuse, or becuase they were the wrong race, or the rong ideaology, or they married someone of the wrong class, or they resisted thoe in power, or they were in power and were resisted effectivly or any other of numerous reasons, Religion is the only reason people ever kill anyone else. Isn't it grand.


[/quote]


Well no offense but when people of your apparent mindset (based on your recent comments) get actual power than yes, religion does become a very dangerous thing.

[Kitty]

"Most people with even an elementary knowledge of Christ will admit that such killing is inconsistent with His teachings. People often try to justify their hatred, actions, and even killing by appealing to whatever is held in high regard by the population. It follows that if Christianity is or was held in high regard by populations, that certain people with the power to carry out atrocities would attempt to justify them in the name of Christianity."

-Kirk Durston, National Director, New Scholars Society

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1901622' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:33 PM']Well no offense but when people of your apparent mindset (based on your recent comments) get actual power than yes, religion does become a very dangerous thing.[/quote]


Yeah, thats it. My mindset is the one thats dangerous.

Wait people with my mindset had actual power for most of the history of the world. Almost everywhere. How many people died in wars or religion, how many died in wars of politics since the birth of the Secular State?

Societies that have aunifying religion protect it. THat is the norm for all societies everywhere. Societies that do not have a unifying religion tend to break up over time anyway.

That said, the general attack on religion is meaningless. This thread is about the understanding of Catholic dogma and doctrine, since niether of you are particularly concerned with that there is no constructive reason for your presence on the thread.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1901626' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:39 PM']"Most people with even an elementary knowledge of Christ will admit that such killing is inconsistent with His teachings. People often try to justify their hatred, actions, and even killing by appealing to whatever is held in high regard by the population. It follows that if Christianity is or was held in high regard by populations, that certain people with the power to carry out atrocities would attempt to justify them in the name of Christianity."

-Kirk Durston, National Director, New Scholars Society[/quote]


oooh appealing to authority only works when the person [i]has[/i] authority. That said, I find it funny it is from an article explaining how much better less horrifying they were than the atheist State.
Probably people with an elementery knowledge of Christ would say such killing are inconsistant wiht his teachings, most elementary studnets will some up chirstianity as "BE NICE TO PEOPLE".

However those with a more developed understanding might not say that.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901637' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:52 PM']Yeah, thats it. My mindset is the one thats dangerous.[/quote]

correct.

[quote]Wait people with my mindset had actual power for most of the history of the world. Almost everywhere. How many people died in wars or religion, how many died in wars of politics since the birth of the Secular State?[/quote]

No idea. We would want to do percentages of populations rather than raw numbers, if we were going to do the test. Either way it has little to do with my point. It is not religion in itself I consider dangerous. I also don't consider communism, in itself dangerous. However just as communism becomes dangerous when a man with a mindset like Stalin comes too power, so religion becomes dangerous when individuals like you come to power.

[quote]Societies that have aunifying religion protect it. THat is the norm for all societies everywhere. Societies that do not have a unifying religion tend to break up over time anyway.[/quote]

Could be. We'd need to look at the data though. I'm not sure how we'd piratically go about doing that.

[Kitty]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901637' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:52 PM']That said, the general attack on religion is meaningless. This thread is about the understanding of Catholic dogma and doctrine, since niether of you are particularly concerned with that there is no constructive reason for your presence on the thread.[/quote]

I understand it. I just don't agree with it.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901637' date='Jun 25 2009, 07:52 PM']This thread is about the understanding of Catholic dogma and doctrine...[/quote]

and the shock that came from it. Ever since the first post, there was a place to express one's reaction to it (and to defend one's reaction to it).

But returning to the thread's theme is a good reminder. I would like to take an hour or two and sum up the knowledge gained on this thread, in terms that (I hope) everyone, or most everyone, reading here would agree to. A challenge indeed! I don't have the time tonight. Of course, if someone else wants to take a crack at it, I'm grateful.

Although, before we jump all the way back, I was curious how Don John was going to respond to my Jan Hus post a bit ago.