I Feel Like I Owe You Guys.....

[LSW]

[quote name='Lumiere' post='1897764' date='Jun 21 2009, 06:19 PM']People who call themselves homosexual are by and large fully homosexual. It is not a tendency they can ignore with "will power", it is who they are. A homosexual, like a heterosexual, may decide to live a chaste life or a celibate life, but they will still be homosexual.[/quote]

I'm sorry but you contradicted yourself in that paragraph. If a heterosexual or homosexual person decides to live a chaste or celebate life, then it is through their own will(will power) that they are able to do this.

[Noel's angel]

Firstly, prayers.

Secondly, let's not turn yet another thread into a debate where none was intended. If people want to debate or discuss 'homosexual tendencies' or whether God's will should make you happy on earth, go to the debate board.
Meanwhile, I hope this thread will return to being one of encouragement and prayer. We should continue to encourage Ora, and each other, to constantly seek out God's will when things get tough and we aren't sure what to do.
Our Blessed Mother could have easily said no to God when he asked her to be the Mother of His Son. But she did His will and brought our Lord into the world.
I'm sure that before he was captured, when he was 'sorrowful, even unto death' that Christ wished things had been different for Him. Yet, because He asked that the Father's will be done, He was able to overcome death.

What great things can be done when people say 'not my will but Yours be done'.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Noel's angel

[Lumiere]

[quote name='LSW' post='1897784' date='Jun 21 2009, 06:29 PM']I'm sorry but you contradicted yourself in that paragraph. If a heterosexual or homosexual person decides to live a chaste or celebate life, then it is through their own will(will power) that they are able to do this.[/quote]

Is a heterosexual who decides to live a chaste or celibate life still heterosexual?

Why does no one refer to "heterosexual tendencies".

I agree that this thread shouldn't be sidetracked. The thing that has been on my heart since I read this young man's letter is that he be given the time and space to discern for himself what his vocation is without knee jerk condemnation of his homosexuality (whether that condemnation is open or more subtle). I felt that there had to be someone who would reassure him that he is accepted as he is and that God loves him as he is.

That is why I decided to finally post for the first time.

What this young man is dealing with is really no different than what most young men deal with at this age, the only difference is he loves another young man instead of young woman.

[takebacktonight]

Take it slow, buddy. God has good in store for all of us. What form that takes I honestly have no idea.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1897753' date='Jun 21 2009, 05:11 PM']I've read some books by the founder of the movement "Communion and Liberation", Fr. Giussani, and he's said many times that the journey with God brings happiness, moreover, joy.

Anywho, I concur with Gregorius.[/quote]
Ha, that's precisely who I was thinking about! Mgsr. Giussani is the man!

[OraProMe]

Thanks guys. I wish I had enough time to respond to you all.
I have to go to a lecture soon so I should probably gulp down some coffee but I thought I'd just respond to homosexuality being a flaw or comparing it to alcoholism.

You see, they are disorders, and they're harmful to both the individual who suffers from them and the people in their life. I can't see anything inherently harmful about two members of the same sex loving eachother......

(Lets not bring up AIDS or suicide rates. I think any sane minded person can see that's caused by promiscuity and social rejection, not purely because the individual has SSA).

P.S. I saw James yesterday, we're just going to be friends. But I felt great.
Then I went and paid a visit to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and felt even greater.

Edited June 22, 2009 by OraProMe

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1897909' date='Jun 21 2009, 07:43 PM']Thanks guys. I wish I had enough time to respond to you all.
I have to go to a lecture soon so I should probably gulp down some coffee but I thought I'd just respond to homosexuality being a flaw or comparing it to alcoholism.

You see, they are disorders, and they're harmful to both the individual who suffers from them and the people in their life. I can't see anything inherently harmful about two members of the same sex loving eachother.....[/quote]
That's the problem with things like this. I've had problems with pornography, and I still have lapses from time to time. That's why the sins against chastity are particularly tricky, because they don't appear to have any direct harmful effects on the suffering individual or the people around them, when they in fact do.
I'll be praying for you to discern God's will and see that what makes us happy might actually might not be what's best in the long run.

And in conclusion, a thought from Pope Pius XII:

"Christ did not wish to exclude sinners from His Church; hence if some of her members are suffering from spiritual maladies, that is no reason why we should lessen our love for the Church, but rather a reason why we should increase our devotion to Her members." - His Holiness Pope Pius XII, "Mystici Corporis Christi"

Edited June 22, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1897909' date='Jun 21 2009, 09:43 PM']Thanks guys. I wish I had enough time to respond to you all.
I have to go to a lecture soon so I should probably gulp down some coffee but I thought I'd just respond to homosexuality being a flaw or comparing it to alcoholism.

You see, they are disorders, and they're harmful to both the individual who suffers from them and the people in their life. I can't see anything inherently harmful about two members of the same sex loving eachother......

(Lets not bring up AIDS or suicide rates. I think any sane minded person can see that's caused by promiscuity and social rejection, not purely because the individual has SSA).

P.S. I saw James yesterday, we're just going to be friends. But I felt great.
Then I went and paid a visit to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and felt even greater.[/quote]

The alcoholism was merely an example, not a comparison. You seem to have misunderstood my reply. The point was the struggle is not limited in the way you see it, the struggle is a universal response when we know, in our hearts, that we are doing something that we should not be doing. Typically, we call it Natural Law, but it is an innate response when we know we are doing something we should not be doing. It could be alcohol, it could be pornography, it could anything that we know frustrates the Divine Will of God. The attraction is not the sin, the acting on it is, just as a heterosexual acting in a way they shouldn't. My point is you seem so obsessed with this attraction, that you are not seeing anything else. You say you don't want to be a hypocrite, but there is a difference between hypocrisy and a struggle. Fighting is never pretty, and we are constantly waging war of a spiritual nature.

As Hebrews beautifully puts it: "In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood."

[Norseman82]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1897909' date='Jun 21 2009, 08:43 PM']Thanks guys. I wish I had enough time to respond to you all.
I have to go to a lecture soon so I should probably gulp down some coffee but I thought I'd just respond to homosexuality being a flaw or comparing it to alcoholism.

You see, they are disorders, and they're harmful to both the individual who suffers from them and the people in their life. I can't see anything inherently harmful about two members of the same sex loving eachother......

(Lets not bring up AIDS or suicide rates. I think any sane minded person can see that's caused by promiscuity and social rejection, not purely because the individual has SSA).

P.S. I saw James yesterday, we're just going to be friends. But I felt great.
Then I went and paid a visit to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and felt even greater.[/quote]

First, I am glad to hear that you have decided against taking a disastrous step.

Second, as far as the harm done, it is a spiritual harm, as any sex outside of a valid heterosexual sacramental marriage is a mortal sin, the penalty of which is eternity in hell. Our friendships on this earth should not cause us to sin; if they do, we need to avoid them. That is what is meant by "avoid the near occasion of sin" in the Act of Contrition that we pray when we go to confession. Please remember these points as a means of fighting off temptation should you feel tempted again in the future.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1897935' date='Jun 21 2009, 08:04 PM']First, I am glad to hear that you have decided against taking a disastrous step.

Second, as far as the harm done, it is a spiritual harm, as any sex outside of a valid heterosexual sacramental marriage is a mortal sin, the penalty of which is eternity in hell. Our friendships on this earth should not cause us to sin; if they do, we need to avoid them. That is what is meant by "avoid the near occasion of sin" in the Act of Contrition that we pray when we go to confession. Please remember these points as a means of fighting off temptation should you feel tempted again in the future.[/quote]
Hey, don't be all hating, saying that stuff is pretty easy, actually doing it is another story. We are here to support him, not teach him!

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1897935' date='Jun 21 2009, 08:04 PM']First, I am glad to hear that you have decided against taking a disastrous step.

Second, as far as the harm done, it is a spiritual harm, as any sex outside of a valid heterosexual sacramental marriage is a mortal sin, the penalty of which is eternity in hell. Our friendships on this earth should not cause us to sin; if they do, we need to avoid them. That is what is meant by "avoid the near occasion of sin" in the Act of Contrition that we pray when we go to confession. Please remember these points as a means of fighting off temptation should you feel tempted again in the future.[/quote]

Hey, thanks.
Just because we're not in a relationship doesn't mean that I've accepted the Churches teaching. My problem was never about one boy. I'm smart enough to realize how transient human (especially romantic) relationships are.

Thanks for the advice, but it's all stuff I've thought over for years
My problem is not combating sin, if I thought homosexuality was a sin then I'd gladly submit to the Church regardless of how unhappy it made me. The reason I've decided I can't is precisely because I don't consider a loving relationship, regardless of who it's between, sinful.

Father,
Thankyou and sorry if I mis-read your post.
It's early. I'm doing homework. Once again, sorry. I will have another read over it later

Edited June 22, 2009 by OraProMe

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1897937' date='Jun 21 2009, 09:08 PM']Hey, don't be all hating,[/quote]

First, how is stating the truth and offering practical advice that comes right out of a well-respected catechism "hating"?

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1897937' date='Jun 21 2009, 09:08 PM']saying that stuff is pretty easy, actually doing it is another story.[/quote]

Well, there are people out there who actually do it. Does it surprise you?

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1897937' date='Jun 21 2009, 09:08 PM']We are here to support him, not teach him![/quote]

Any "support" that confirms his sin is NO support at all, but rather tragedy. Sure, God is merciful and will take us back if we repent, but what happens if we die before we get a chance? Are you willing to take that chance? Is it not easier to prevent it in the first place? Which is the easier and better way to fight lung cancer, doing surgery on a cancer patient to remove a tumor on his lung, or trying to get him to not start smoking in the first place?

There are several people here (including the webmaster and an ordained priest) who are trying to help the poster to sort through this and prevent him from making what could be the biggest mistake of his life - the equivalent of trying to stop him from starting to smoke (or getting him to quit early on before the addiction takes hold). Please let us do our jobs.

(dUSt and especially Theologian in Training, if you feel my posts are causing more harm than good, then please let me know).

Edited June 22, 2009 by Norseman82

[rose wrought of iron]

Prayers. Trust. And more prayers.

[eagle_eye222001]

Not what is correct is always obvious.

You have a very difficult decision to make.

You'll be in my prayers.

----------------
Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/coldplay/track/a+message"]Coldplay - A Message[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1897902' date='Jun 21 2009, 08:37 PM']Ha, that's precisely who I was thinking about! Mgsr. Giussani is the man![/quote]
Nice! I got hooked on his works this year. I'm behind in my CL readings though

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1898052' date='Jun 21 2009, 10:36 PM']First, how is stating the truth and offering practical advice that comes right out of a well-respected catechism "hating"?



Well, there are people out there who actually do it. Does it surprise you?



Any "support" that confirms his sin is NO support at all, but rather tragedy. Sure, God is merciful and will take us back if we repent, but what happens if we die before we get a chance? Are you willing to take that chance? Is it not easier to prevent it in the first place? Which is the easier and better way to fight lung cancer, doing surgery on a cancer patient to remove a tumor on his lung, or trying to get him to not start smoking in the first place?

There are several people here (including the webmaster and an ordained priest) who are trying to help the poster to sort through this and prevent him from making what could be the biggest mistake of his life - the equivalent of trying to stop him from starting to smoke (or getting him to quit early on before the addiction takes hold). Please let us do our jobs.

(dUSt and especially Theologian in Training, if you feel my posts are causing more harm than good, then please let me know).[/quote]

If you want to discuss this stuff can you please take it to the debate table, okay? You're not telling me anything new. I'd like to think I know my faith pretty well.

Thankyou.
Goodbye

[Dave]

OraProMe:

Did you ever consider the possibility that your desire to have a relationship with another man may be not so much a desire for a love relationship so much as a desire to have a normal, close male friendship? I mean, do you -- or have you ever had -- close male friends who love you the way best friends love each other?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Dave' post='1899273' date='Jun 23 2009, 12:42 AM']OraProMe:

Did you ever consider the possibility that your desire to have a relationship with another man may be not so much a desire for a love relationship so much as a desire to have a normal, close male friendship? I mean, do you -- or have you ever had -- close male friends who love you the way best friends love each other?[/quote]

My two best friends, Jason & Rhys, are both straight guys.
Jason has a girlfriend who I set him up with and together they have lots of heterosexual sex.

Theories that try to explain homosexuality like that really confuse me and obviously have no basis in fact, atleast in my experience.

Edited June 23, 2009 by OraProMe

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1899288' date='Jun 23 2009, 12:53 AM']Jason has a girlfriend who I set him up with and together they have lots of heterosexual sex.[/quote]

If you didn't think they would be pure with each other, why did you set them up?

Edited June 23, 2009 by Resurrexi

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1899383' date='Jun 23 2009, 12:17 PM']If you didn't think they would be pure with each other, why did you set them up?

[/quote]

Who says he didn't think that? He might feel terrible about it, and you would have hurt his feelings enormously with that comment.















(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)