Time

[Don John of Austria]

Okay, let me first say this is something that just occured to me. THis is NOT a fully formulated idea and I am not contending this as a set belief. My thoughts on this could certianly be incorrect, I am simply making a postulation.
Please discuss, and feel free to tell me why this is wrong if you believe it so.



Given --- God is outside of time. Nothing I am about to say applies to God Himself.


In the spiritual places Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory time must be experianced and pass at least in some way.

This must be because people in Hell experiance Hell, but will be resurrected and reunited with their bodies at the Resurrection, for the General Judgement.

This must be true because people in Heaven experiance the beatific vision but will return to Earth and be reunited with their bodies at the Resurrection, for the General Judgement.

This must be because people in Purgation experiance time----- they attend the purifying fires of purgation [i]until[/i] they are purified and then they go to Heaven. There can be no until, or change if there is not some experiance of time.

And the most telling. The Saints cannot intervene in the past for you. For example one cannot make a novena to St. Gerard that he intervene with God, so that ones mother not die in childbirth [i]after [/i]this has happened. However, if the dead did not experiance time this would mean nothing to them and such an intervention would be possible as the past and present would hold no meaning.


This experiancing of Time is temporary and will end when the Resurrection occurs and a New Heaven and New Earth are created. The New Creation will be without time.

Please be civil, agian this is just speculation.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1899533' date='Jun 23 2009, 10:37 AM']Okay, let me first say this is something that just occured to me. THis is NOT a fully formulated idea and I am not contending this as a set belief. My thoughts on this could certianly be incorrect, I am simply making a postulation.
Please discuss, and feel free to tell me why this is wrong if you believe it so.



Given --- God is outside of time. Nothing I am about to say applies to God Himself.


In the spiritual places Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory time must be experianced and pass at least in some way.

This must be because people in Hell experiance Hell, but will be resurrected and reunited with their bodies at the Resurrection, for the General Judgement.

This must be true because people in Heaven experiance the beatific vision but will return to Earth and be reunited with their bodies at the Resurrection, for the General Judgement.

This must be because people in Purgation experiance time----- they attend the purifying fires of purgation [i]until[/i] they are purified and then they go to Heaven. There can be no until, or change if there is not some experiance of time.

And the most telling. The Saints cannot intervene in the past for you. For example one cannot make a novena to St. Gerard that he intervene with God, so that ones mother not die in childbirth [i]after [/i]this has happened. However, if the dead did not experiance time this would mean nothing to them and such an intervention would be possible as the past and present would hold no meaning.


This experiancing of Time is temporary and will end when the Resurrection occurs and a New Heaven and New Earth are created. The New Creation will be without time.

Please be civil, agian this is just speculation.[/quote]



Nothing?

Even after all that on the purgatory thread?

[dUSt]

I don't have time right now.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1900549' date='Jun 24 2009, 10:36 AM']I don't have time right now.[/quote]

lol

[scardella]

A random smattering of thoughts:
I think it's a general consensus that Purgatory is temporal.
The 4 last things are Death, Judgement, heaven and hell.
Heaven and Hell are eternal, but it is not clear how we would experience Heaven and Hell outside of an understanding of time.
God and Angels participate in temporal affairs.

[kafka]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1900547' date='Jun 24 2009, 10:33 AM']Nothing?

Even after all that on the purgatory thread?[/quote]
Just give me some 'time'

The problem is we've talked about this subject a lot, so when a brand new thread is made it takes a little extra motivation for me to discuss it again even though I love the subject of Time and Eternity.

I think you made a couple of good points. I will say right off the bat, I disagree with your statement that Heaven is temporal.

[Seven77]

Interesting. Sometimes I think about time like that... here's what I wonder:

if heaven is outside of time, as I believe i it to be so, then can it be that the Saints in heaven have their bodies 'already' and the general judgment has 'already happened' for them? because if there is no time in heaven that means there is no past present or future... there is only an eternal now. I think that Don John might be onto something--- maybe there is some kind of 'time' outside of time (not for God course, but for human beings in heaven, hell and purgatory). I don't think it's something that we are meant to grasp. I believe that time travel In the created universe is necessarily impossible. everything for us here is limited -- it has to be limited. We can't get our minds around it from here... but we must be able to on the other end. It's all pretty mind-boggling.

I hope I was able to build on the topic a little bit.

Ps:

Kafka: I don't think that Don John said" heaven is temporal" anywhere in the thread so far... if there is some kind of "time" in heaven ( for human beings) that doesn't necessarily mean heaven is temporal and not eternal.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Seven77

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='scardella' post='1900582' date='Jun 24 2009, 11:47 AM']A random smattering of thoughts:
I think it's a general consensus that Purgatory is temporal.

[color="#2E8B57"]Not according to the Purgatory thread. I didn't see anything like a concensus their.[/color][/quote]

[scardella]

That's because half the people there are Eastern Orthodox.

[Patrick]

[quote name='scardella' post='1900639' date='Jun 24 2009, 11:51 AM']That's because half the people there are Eastern Orthodox.[/quote]

That thread had some convincing Catholic sources posted by Catholics regarding Catholics not believing in purgatory-in-time.

[scardella]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1900646' date='Jun 24 2009, 01:57 PM']That thread had some convincing Catholic sources posted by Catholics regarding Catholics not believing in purgatory-in-time.[/quote]

Can you tell me which post? I didn't see an agreement besides an opinion by Louisville Fan. The article I linked to clearly stated that it was temporal.

[Patrick]

[quote name='scardella' post='1900661' date='Jun 24 2009, 12:17 PM']Can you tell me which post? I didn't see an agreement besides an opinion by Louisville Fan. The article I linked to clearly stated that it was temporal.[/quote]

Oh, I think I've made a mistake, by misunderstanding one of the sources. Thank you for pointing this out. I'll continue discussion in the Purgatory thread.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1900608' date='Jun 24 2009, 12:45 PM']Interesting. Sometimes I think about time like that... here's what I wonder:

if heaven is outside of time, as I believe i it to be so, then can it be that the Saints in heaven have their bodies 'already' and the general judgment has 'already happened' for them? because if there is no time in heaven that means there is no past present or future... there is only an eternal now. I think that Don John might be onto something--- maybe there is some kind of 'time' outside of time (not for God course, but for human beings in heaven, hell and purgatory). I don't think it's something that we are meant to grasp. I believe that time travel In the created universe is necessarily impossible. everything for us here is limited -- it has to be limited. We can't get our minds around it from here... but we must be able to on the other end. It's all pretty mind-boggling.

I hope I was able to build on the topic a little bit.

Ps:

Kafka: I don't think that Don John said" heaven is temporal" anywhere in the thread so far... if there is some kind of "time" in heaven ( for human beings) that doesn't necessarily mean heaven is temporal and not eternal.[/quote]



Thank you. I have not said that Heaven is temproal. I have just said that time must be experianced in Heaven in some way.

[Don John of Austria]

Now that I have thought about it a bit.

Is not the current Heaven Temporal, at least in some way?


Heaven was created by God.

Heaven will be destroyed by God.


God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth.

These will be eternal.

Beginning and end date, seems plenty temporal. This does not mean it has time in the way we think of time but to have a beginning and an end seems definantly temporal. Unless you could somehow be temporary and still not temporal. Which is certianly possible when speaking about God's actions.


P.S. Ever noticed the Saved get a shinny New Heaven [i]and[/i] a New Earth and the Damned get the same old rusty Hell?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1899533' date='Jun 23 2009, 11:37 AM']In the spiritual places Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory time must be experianced and pass at least in some way.[/quote]

I'm no expert on these things either, but I'd hesitate to consider this a sound assumption. I personally believe time -- as we know it -- is restricted to the creation or universe. Heaven and hell exist outside of the universe and purgatory may not be a place at all (for what little we actually know about it), so there is no passing of time among them. They simply are.

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1899533' date='Jun 23 2009, 11:37 AM']And the most telling. The Saints cannot intervene in the past for you. For example one cannot make a novena to St. Gerard that he intervene with God, so that ones mother not die in childbirth [i]after [/i]this has happened. However, if the dead did not experiance time this would mean nothing to them and such an intervention would be possible as the past and present would hold no meaning.[/quote]

If God is not only outside of time, but the creator of time, and all prayer is directed towards God, then why not? The Last Supper celebrated the Crucifixion and Resurrection before they occured in time (for that matter, every Mass in a sense occurs outside of time) and Mary was protected from original sin by her Immaculate Conception by the graces of the same Crucifixion and Resurrection of her son. I wouldn't put any restrictions on the power of prayer to influence events at any point in time... doesn't mean I understand it, but understanding such mysteries is above my pay grade.

Edited June 25, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[kafka]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1901213' date='Jun 25 2009, 10:30 AM']If God is not only outside of time, but the creator of time, and all prayer is directed towards God, then why not? The Last Supper celebrated the Crucifixion and Resurrection before they occured in time (for that matter, every Mass in a sense occurs outside of time) and Mary was protected from original sin by her Immaculate Conception by the graces of the same Crucifixion and Resurrection of her son. I wouldn't put any restrictions on the power of prayer to influence events at any point in time... doesn't mean I understand it, but understanding such mysteries is above my pay grade. [/quote]
I think you are making some very good points here Louisville


I think you brought up a good point Don John about the First Heaven having a beginning and an end. So I guess there could be something of metaphysical Time (or duration) existing there, although this is difficult to imagine since Heaven is also beyond Place, and Time and Place are closely linked as our physicists love to explain in the space/time model. In any case Heaven is with God who is Eternity, and to be with God is to be beyond all Time and Place. I'm not sure how these ideas could be reconciled, and perhaps they cant since at the core Heaven is mysterious.

I also like the speculation that once one dies, one is reunited with one's new body at the resurrection in a twinkling of an eye since Heaven is Timeless and Placeless. It is not as if one has to wait and wait and wait hundreds or thousands of earth years for the general resurrection I've actually thought about this myself before.

Also I believe a New Hell will be created for both the body and the soul. The first Hell is only for the soul.

{20:14} And Hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death.


Good thoughts Don Juan.

Edited June 25, 2009 by kafka

[Don John of Austria]

I'm no expert on these things either, but I'd hesitate to consider this a sound assumption. I personally believe time -- as we know it -- is restricted to the creation or universe. Heaven and hell exist outside of the universe and purgatory may not be a place at all (for what little we actually know about it), so there is no passing of time among them. They simply are.

[color="#2E8B57"]Then how can they begin and end? God being one who is the Creator of time, has no beginning and no end but Hell had a Beginning, Heaven had a beginning, Purgatory had a beginning. Purgatory and Heaven, at least will have an End. How can they simply be if they have a specific begining and ending in time?[/color]


If God is not only outside of time, but the creator of time, and all prayer is directed towards God, then why not? The Last Supper celebrated the Crucifixion and Resurrection before they occured in time (for that matter, every Mass in a sense occurs outside of time) and Mary was protected from original sin by her Immaculate Conception by the graces of the same Crucifixion and Resurrection of her son. I wouldn't put any restrictions on the power of prayer to influence events at any point in time... doesn't mean I understand it, but understanding such mysteries is above my pay grade.


[color="#2E8B57"]But Mary was the exception and a big one, made necessary by God's plans for her and not instituted by the request of those of us in time. I would disagree with you about Mass, Mass is definantly in time, and the unity with Christ sacrifice makes that sacrifice current or constant. lots of thoughts here.... but back to time in the spiritual places.[/color]

Edited June 26, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Didacus]

Don,

I'm struggling with a similar if not identical dillema. LEt me see if I undersatnd correctly;

If heaven is outside of time, how can we 'experience' heaven or beatific vision?


If the saints are outside of time, that is to say, they now see all things that were and will be as though they are in the present, then how is it that they can intervene if essentially all things are past for them?

[kafka]

I'm studying [i]Being and Time [/i]by Martin Heidegger this summer. He comes up with many amazingly original metaphysical insights. I'm hoping I might be able to apply some of his insights to the Faith, and perhaps they will lend some insight into Time and Eternity.

As far as the Mass is concerned, I'm of the theological opinion that it transcends Time. There is only one consecration of the Eucharist by Jesus Christ:

All the consecrations of the Eucharist, throughout Time and Place, are One Consecration. All the Masses, throughout Time and Place, are One Mass.

All the communions of a life-time are one communion. All the communions of all men now living are one communion. All the communions of all men, past and future, are one communion.

So, one who participates at the Eucharist transcends Time. He is truly and actually at the Last Supper.


As far as the passage of Time and the question of Place in Purgatory. I wrote an article about it a while back, so I will just take some quotes from it for all of you to consider:

[i]Is Purgatory a Place[/i]

“Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place. . .” –“Summa Theologica” Saint Thomas Aquinas

It seems Purgatory is not a Place, since it is not physical. It seems the Holy Souls in Purgatory are not in Time, since they are separated from their physical bodies. Yet Purgatory and the Holy Souls are created. All Creation of God has a beginning. With Creation is beginning, in Time and in Place.

“Time is the fixed ordering and separation of events into before and after. Place is the separation and ordering of things into here and there.” –“Time and Eternity” Ronald L Conte Jr.

Only God is Uncreated, is Eternity, is Simplicity, Undivided, and so on. People say, “Human souls are simple and have no parts.” Not absolutely so, since even when separated from their bodies, they are still created beings. Time and Place in a sense divides souls even in a non-physical way. “Let us make Man to our own image and likeness.” (Gen. 1:26) The simplicity of human souls is a mere reflection of the absolute Simplicity we call God who is beyond Time and Place.

Purgatory is created. In Purgatory the Holy Souls experience Time in a non-physical way. The passing of Time is measured by the change they undergo. In a sequence, at one point they have atoned for fewer sins than a following point. At one point they are less like Christ than a following point. This is the before and after of Time. This is the order and separation of Time, even in a non-physical realm. By nature, a non-physical realm is higher than a physical one; therefore Time in Purgatory is beyond Time on Earth. Some call Purgatorial Time: Eviternity!

Purgatory is a non-physical place. It is not Earth, not Hell, and not Heaven. Just as New York is not Paris. They are two different things, as Purgatory is different from Hell. The difference makes them separated and ordered into here and there. Hence, Earth, Purgatory, and Hell (but not Heaven!) is a Place even in a non-physical way. The only way to completely understand Time and Place in Purgatory is to experience it.

In Purgatory the Holy Souls are not yet with God. This is one reason why in Sacred Scripture (which included Limbo of the Fathers) is sometimes described as a “prison.” (1 Pet 3: 19, 20) As they atone for sins, part of the captivity is that they are still bound by Time, and Place. “And see if there might be in me the way of iniquity and lead me in the way of eternity.” (Ps 138: 54) More than ever they long to be with Eternity (God), but are still bound by Time, and Place as they atone for personal sins not made up for as they lived on Earth, and as they ultimately become more Christ-like than as they were on Earth."

from my article [i]Heaven and Purgatory[/i]


one last thing I want to mention for now. I like the terminology Heaven is beyond (or transcends) Time and Place better than Heaven is outside Time and Place. The reason is the Time and Place factor for Heaven can be considered in different ways for example Heaven is not only Timeless in the sense it is beyond Time, it is also Timeful in the sense that it is like all time put together at once.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
if there are other dimensions in time, do they know about Jesus Christ?