Time

[kafka]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1902154' date='Jun 26 2009, 12:22 PM']+J.M.J.+
if there are other dimensions in time, do they know about Jesus Christ? [/quote]
lol.

you mean particles existing in different dimensions or actual humans?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='kafka' post='1902163' date='Jun 26 2009, 10:30 AM']lol.

you mean particles existing in different dimensions or actual humans?

[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
ya know, like dimensions in tv shows or movies. or 'alternate realities' as some call them.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1902174' date='Jun 26 2009, 12:45 PM']+J.M.J.+
ya know, like dimensions in tv shows or movies. or 'alternate realities' as some call them.[/quote]


Those would be differant dimensions of space time. It is a question I have thought a lot about as I study cosmology, if the many worlds theory is true, it gets really sticky.



Of course I would say, all of them that God wants to know Jesus Christ, do. Which of course is not answering the question at all, is it?

But this is a differant question from the one about the Spiritual places.


The really odd question would be, If there are differant dimensions, and they have people in them, and those people are indeed extraordinarly similar to us, do they go to the Same Heaven, Hell and Purgatory, or do they have thier own?

[kafka]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1902174' date='Jun 26 2009, 12:45 PM']+J.M.J.+
ya know, like dimensions in tv shows or movies. or 'alternate realities' as some call them.[/quote]
in sci-fic?

Actually in real physics Feynman's sum of histories theory seems to support a consistent history (reality) rather than an alternate histories (realites) idea since according to his equation the universe didnt just have a single history, it had every possible history of a space-time covering all of its own probabilities in the uncertanity principle of quantum mechanics.

I think I explained that sort of correctly

Edited June 26, 2009 by kafka

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1902106' date='Jun 26 2009, 10:35 AM']Don,

I'm struggling with a similar if not identical dillema. LEt me see if I undersatnd correctly;

If heaven is outside of time, how can we 'experience' heaven or beatific vision?


If the saints are outside of time, that is to say, they now see all things that were and will be as though they are in the present, then how is it that they can intervene if essentially all things are past for them?[/quote]



well i am okay with putting aside the Beatific vision as a completly transcendent experiance. But the Saints issue is one I am particularly concerned with.

[scardella]

Aren't Heaven and Hell not created realities with an objective existence, but, rather, a state of being? That is, are they not are a state of relationship with God rather than objective spiritual realities?

Heaven is being in the full presence of and union with God, whereas Hell is the complete absence of God (excepting the grace of existence). In a similar manner, Purgatory and this life move are between the two, and there is only resolution when you become totally cut off from God at death (going to Hell) or are perfected by God's grace whether in this life or in Purgatory.

[kafka]

[quote name='scardella' post='1902192' date='Jun 26 2009, 01:06 PM']Aren't Heaven and Hell not created realities with an objective existence, but, rather, a state of being? That is, are they not are a state of relationship with God rather than objective spiritual realities?[/quote]
Heaven and Hell cannot be mere states of being. Heaven and Hell has to in some way 'contain' the angels and humans overwise theoretically there would be no seperation. There must be seperation even in the spiritual realms. If Heaven were a mere state of being one could experience Heaven on Earth which is impossible.

Edited June 26, 2009 by kafka

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='scardella' post='1902192' date='Jun 26 2009, 01:06 PM']Aren't Heaven and Hell not created realities with an objective existence, but, rather, a state of being? That is, are they not are a state of relationship with God rather than objective spiritual realities?

Heaven is being in the full presence of and union with God, whereas Hell is the complete absence of God (excepting the grace of existence). In a similar manner, Purgatory and this life move are between the two, and there is only resolution when you become totally cut off from God at death (going to Hell) or are perfected by God's grace whether in this life or in Purgatory.[/quote]


I would say not, both Heaven and Hell are objective spiritual realities. Hell is more than the negative punishment of seperation from God, it is also positive punishment and torment.

Similarly, Heaven is more than union with God, Christ and Mary and I assume Elijah ( and Enoch too perhaps), are their physically, they have thier body. This requires at least an objective spiritual reality.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='kafka' post='1902194' date='Jun 26 2009, 01:11 PM']Heaven and Hell cannot be mere states of being. Heaven and Hell has to in some way 'contain' the angels and humans overwise theoretically there would be no seperation. There must be seperation even in the spiritual realms. If Heaven were a mere state of being one could experience Heaven on Earth which is impossible.[/quote]


Agree absolutely.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1902187' date='Jun 26 2009, 11:01 AM']Those would be differant dimensions of space time. It is a question I have thought a lot about as I study cosmology, if the many worlds theory is true, it gets really sticky.



Of course I would say, all of them that God wants to know Jesus Christ, do. Which of course is not answering the question at all, is it?

But this is a differant question from the one about the Spiritual places.


The really odd question would be, If there are differant dimensions, and they have people in them, and those people are indeed extraordinarly similar to us, do they go to the Same Heaven, Hell and Purgatory, or do they have thier own?[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
you make my head hurt.

[kafka]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1902197' date='Jun 26 2009, 01:15 PM']Similarly, Heaven is more than union with God, Christ and Mary and I assume Elijah ( and Enoch too perhaps), are their physically, they have thier body. This requires at least an objective spiritual reality.[/quote]
interesting you bring up Enoch and Elias. I am of the opinion that they are the two prophets of Revelation and will preach and send plagues upon the Earth during the last half of Antichrist's reign. I think God transports them from the past when He took them into the future via Timeless and Placeless Heaven. Another idea is that they are in the Paradise of Adam and Eve. I have to think about that one more.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='kafka' post='1902188' date='Jun 26 2009, 11:03 AM']in sci-fic?

Actually in real physics Feynman's sum of histories theory seems to support a consistent history (reality) rather than an alternate histories (realites) idea since according to his equation the universe didnt just have a single history, it had every possible history of a space-time covering all of its own probabilities in the uncertanity principle of quantum mechanics.

I think I explained that sort of correctly

[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
you make my head hurt too.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1902403' date='Jun 26 2009, 06:28 PM']+J.M.J.+
you make my head hurt too. [/quote]

Ah cosmology is fun. I keep thinkingthat I should have gone into that field, then I could get paid to sit around and speculate aboutthe nature of the universe.


You want your hean to hurt start thinking about 11 dimensional space and Branes upon which universes are located.

Of course my personal favorite was finding out that the realization that I had when i was a boy is essentially accepted physics now... Time does not Flow. Time is, it is oour mind that moves through time and causes us to experiance its flow.


Strictly speaking,what was, is not gone, [b]it is[/b], in that moment of time, forever.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1902407' date='Jun 26 2009, 04:34 PM']Ah cosmology is fun. I keep thinkingthat I should have gone into that field, then I could get paid to sit around and speculate aboutthe nature of the universe.


You want your hean to hurt start thinking about 11 dimensional space and Branes upon which universes are located.

Of course my personal favorite was finding out that the realization that I had when i was a boy is essentially accepted physics now... Time does not Flow. Time is, it is oour mind that moves through time and causes us to experiance its flow.


Strictly speaking,what was, is not gone, [b]it is[/b], in that moment of time, forever.[/quote]+J.M.J.+
i have to go take more aspirin now.

in all seriousness, your last sentence, could you explain in terms of the Crucifixion and the Eucharist?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1902409' date='Jun 26 2009, 06:37 PM']+J.M.J.+
i have to go take more aspirin now.

in all seriousness, your last sentence, could you explain in terms of the Crucifixion and the Eucharist?[/quote]
I don't know, I'll try.

Depending on your speed, location and motion realitive to anything else in the universe your NOw is differant. All nows are equally NOW.
realitive to Earth.
If you were far enough away, moving at the right speed, and direction (velocity) then Christ would be being Crucified right NOW to you ( meaning, if you cold see what was happenign on Earth at that moment). on the other hand IF you differantly located in the universe, moving a differant speed and direction, 500 years in our future would be NOW to you. THe trick is you could alter NOWs by simply turning around and going the other way.

Time is not a flowing River, it is an unmoving glacier, it is us who are moving through it, not it, that is moving.

How this relates to the Eucharist, I would say that the Eucharist transends the motion of use through time, just as it trancends Time Space and joins with the moment of Crucifixion in a trancendent NOW.


Now your trying to make my head hurt.

[kafka]

Since we have a great thread going here is a great quote from JPII's Ecclesia de Eucharistia:

"The Church has received the Eucharist from Christ her Lord not as one gift—however precious—among so many others, but as the gift par excellence, for it is the gift of himself, of his person in his sacred humanity, as well as the gift of his saving work. Nor does it remain confined to the past, since “all that Christ is—all that he did and suffered for all men—participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times”.


Therefore, the salvific death of Jesus Christ on the Cross and his consecration of the Eucharist “participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times.”

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1902090' date='Jun 26 2009, 11:14 AM'][color="#2E8B57"]Then how can they begin and end? God being one who is the Creator of time, has no beginning and no end but Hell had a Beginning, Heaven had a beginning, Purgatory had a beginning. Purgatory and Heaven, at least will have an End. How can they simply be if they have a specific begining and ending in time?[/color][/quote]

I left out one detail in my understanding: that time is restricted to physical creation. I'm sure there are several ways to interpret the first verse, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," but one way would be to understand "heavens" as everything that is unseen (or spiritual, like Heaven and angels) and "earth" as everything that is seen (or tangible, including earth along with all planets and the whole universe). My "theory" is we experience time in the earthly realm, but the heavenly realm (that is, Heaven, Hell, angels) does not experience time.

So, they have a beginning because God created them, but I believe God can create something that exists outside of time similarly to how God created a whole universe that exists outside of our planet Earth.


If God is not only outside of time, but the creator of time, and all prayer is directed towards God, then why not? The Last Supper celebrated the Crucifixion and Resurrection before they occured in time (for that matter, every Mass in a sense occurs outside of time) and Mary was protected from original sin by her Immaculate Conception by the graces of the same Crucifixion and Resurrection of her son. I wouldn't put any restrictions on the power of prayer to influence events at any point in time... doesn't mean I understand it, but understanding such mysteries is above my pay grade.

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1902090' date='Jun 26 2009, 11:14 AM'][color="#2E8B57"]But Mary was the exception and a big one, made necessary by God's plans for her and not instituted by the request of those of us in time. I would disagree with you about Mass, Mass is definantly in time, and the unity with Christ sacrifice makes that sacrifice current or constant. lots of thoughts here.... but back to time in the spiritual places.[/color][/quote]

I hope that we sinners are the exceptions and Mary is the rule.

Yes, each celebration of the Eucharistic liturgy occurs at some point and moment in space and time, but Christ is mysteriously present at every celebration of the Eucharist because the sacrifice of the Crucifixion, which occurred at one time for all time, must be made present to us in order to participate in it and eat the flesh of our sacrificial lamb. In fact, if his sacrifice is not made present, we aren't fulfilling the requirements of the Old or New Covenant. It might as well be a prayer meeting with appetizers.

[Ziggamafu]

Aquinas postulated an æviternity in which the state of heaven is experienced by saints and angels, where change is possible but not necessary. Eternity precludes change (hence God is pure act; changeless) and time is nothing more than measure of change itself. Æviternity is a kind of mode of reality between eternity and time. Also, in the resurrection and new creation, I am unaware if there is a majority opinion of whether time will also be recreated (indicating motion and change) or if æviternity will remain the mode of reality proper to the saints. I would think time would be recreated merely because there seems little point in the creation of matter (and hence the capacity for change) much less in an Incarnation if God was going to do away with the time/space in which matter properly enjoys its perfections.

[Winchester]

Actually, I think there will be time in the new creation, there just won't be an end. It will be "glorfied" time, like our bodies. We act. Actions require time. There was time in the Garden of Eden.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1900550' date='Jun 24 2009, 10:37 AM']lol[/quote]
The use of that [i]thing[/i] is beneath you.