Anyone Else Ever Feel Like This?

[Deus te Amat]

You guys should read Plato and Aristotle. And then Aquinas, to tie all their proofs into the faith. It's weird, because suddenly, something clicks and the world makes sense.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1918074' date='Jul 12 2009, 06:45 PM']You guys should read Plato and Aristotle. And then Aquinas, to tie all their proofs into the faith. It's weird, because suddenly, something clicks and the world makes sense.[/quote]

They certainly help... but it's strange in that faith is a little more mysterious than that. I'm a philosophy major, with an emphasis on ancient and medieval philosophy-- so I've been through all those guys. And they certainly help. But it's not everything. And one can still have doubts.

[jeffpugh]

I feel that I don't understand and that I am small as well. But that's not the problem. That's part of the answer. Admitting that you're small is realising that the Christian thing is beyond singular comprehension, but a collective witness to each other and the world in understand who God is, what he has done in the past and what he continues to do. Science is the same way. No one scientist is alone in his or her search for the truth. They have to put faith in the research and findings of other colleagues. Historians the same. The modern notion of total autonomy and individuality is irrational and preposterous. Remember that you believe cause others witness and attest to God's work!

+

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1918077' date='Jul 12 2009, 05:57 PM']They certainly help... but it's strange in that faith is a little more mysterious than that. I'm a philosophy major, with an emphasis on ancient and medieval philosophy-- so I've been through all those guys. And they certainly help. But it's not everything. And one can still have doubts.[/quote]

Oh, I definitely know that. I still struggle with doubt too. I was just suggesting them because my metaphysics class really helped me to better understand how the world works. The logic of the philosophers is pretty incredible.

But doubt is understandable. After all, men are not always rational creatures. We like proof we can touch and see, but that's where faith comes in. For me, though, faith is easier with the logic to back it up. Perhaps that's just because I'm a math major...

[Hassan]

[quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1917648' date='Jul 11 2009, 11:52 PM']blahhhh. lately I've been feeling quite exasperated. My mind is so finite... There is so much out there that my fogged reason cannot comprehend... and cannot be believe without a faith that I apparently do not have. There are those ideas that are impossible to wrap my mind around... Like time. << that's been a big one recently. I don't know how to believe certain things... but I want nothing more for everything I've taught to be true! But maybe that's where trust comes in- where there is no faith. I dunno.

These past couple weeks it's been becoming too much... like the possibility that what the church teaches just might not be true... that the material world is all there is. It makes me pretty anxious. And I realize that the desire I have for all of this to be true should be proof enough that it is... but my mind keeps questioning.

Does anyone else ever feel like that?

Knowing rationally that there is Truth out there... and that ideas exist! There is a reality! But constantly questioning what this Truth is. It seems impossible to ever know for sure. Which I guess makes perfect sense, since for our human minds it is impossible. But just to believe in these Truths must be taken by a faith which I evidently do not have... sometimes it makes me feel sick.

I dunno. This anxiety & frustration has been reoccurring for awhile know, and I don't know how to get past it. I'm sure I'm not the only one on phatmass who has felt like this... [/quote]


Yes. You can continue trying to hold onto your faith or you can renounce it. I'm happier not being religious. But it depends on the person. You will never be free from doubt, nor should you want to be. One of my favorite intellectual writers is Ziauddin Sardar. When I was in an old book store yesterday I picked up his book "Desperately Seeking Paradise: Journey's of a Skeptical Muslim". He talked about his student days when he was looking into all the different sort of sects withing Sunni Islam. He touched elbows with about every group imaginable from missionaries to Sufi Masters to Radical sects who aspired to be like the Muslim Brotherhood. He described he work with the last group, which had a good deal of fanatics. I think he comments can be applied to all sorts of fanaticism, he described how they had this strange, yet terrifying aura about them. They lacked doubt, they had absolute certainty. They operated through a simple mental calsulus there was Islam, that would be people who thought like them, and there were Kufir, anyone who disagreed with them. You see this in all sorts of similar movements. Be they Christian fundamentalists in the deep south to communist radicals in Russia. A lack of doubt is a dangerous thing. It is also intellectually boring and stupid. A lack of doubt admits no nuance and no adaptability. How you seek to resolve your problems regarding your religion is up too you, but please don't fool yourself. Unless you become a member of an unfortunate lot of human beings you will never be fully free from doubt. There are some traditional societies where this does not seem to be a problem. There religion, cultural norms et cetera form a seamless whole and are so implicitly assumed that they are difficult to question, we also have such assumptions and prejudice, just not in regards to religion. You will have to learn to incorporate uncertainty into your life regarding these matters, there is no other viable or attractive option. It seems difficult but it is just a part of life. The only thing I can say is be honest with yourself. That is really all you can do.

[icelandic_iceskater]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1918074' date='Jul 12 2009, 06:45 PM']You guys should read Plato and Aristotle. And then Aquinas, to tie all their proofs into the faith. It's weird, because suddenly, something clicks and the world makes sense.[/quote]
Do you recommend anything in particular? I started going through the Summa about a year ago, but didn't get very far... it gave me a headache. lol. I did end up studying a few of his ways through other sources, though. Along with Desire via Lewis & Paschal's wagar... but that's as far as I've gotten. And I barely understand it all.

Thanks for all the prayers, advice, & sharing of your experiences... It's good to know that this is a pretty common struggle... although not cool that it is so common. But knowing that despite the anxiety & doubt, it's still possible to hold true to your faith... I mean, just look at you all! Talk about perseverance. You guys are in my prayers too.

[Hassan]

[quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1918173' date='Jul 12 2009, 08:13 PM']Do you recommend anything in particular? I started going through the Summa about a year ago, but didn't get very far... it gave me a headache. lol. I did end up studying a few of his ways through other sources, though. Along with Desire via Lewis & Paschal's wagar... but that's as far as I've gotten. And I barely understand it all.

Thanks for all the prayers, advice, & sharing of your experiences... It's good to know that this is a pretty common struggle... although not cool that it is so common. But knowing that despite the anxiety & doubt, it's still possible to hold true to your faith... I mean, just look at you all! Talk about perseverance. You guys are in my prayers too.[/quote]


GEM Anscombe wrote some on Aristotle and Aquinas. She, Michael Dummett and a few other I can't remember at the momenet were part of a sort of Catholic resurgence at Oxford and Cambridge after WWII. Most of their work deals with technical issues of analytic philosophy and philosophical logic, but they also wrote some things of religion you may find helpful.

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1918173' date='Jul 12 2009, 09:13 PM']Do you recommend anything in particular? I started going through the Summa about a year ago, but didn't get very far... it gave me a headache. lol. I did end up studying a few of his ways through other sources, though. Along with Desire via Lewis & Paschal's wagar... but that's as far as I've gotten. And I barely understand it all.[/quote]


Try and find Fr. W. Norris Clarke's [i]Person and Being[/i]. He's a Thomist, and his book was really helpful and easy to understand.

Also, you'll probably have to read Plato's Republic and Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics for your philosophy course... but all of their works (that I've seen) contain tidbits helpful to finding understanding. Aristotle's Metaphysics most specifically. Idk, they are difficult to udnerstand, so reading them in a class setting will be of the most use.

Do you have to take a Metaphysics course at Holy Cross?

[CatherineM]

Retreats have always worked for me, especially the silent kind.

[MissyP89]

Only every single day of my life.

Back before my other half converted, we watched a good friend of ours leave the Church after a terrible Dark Night of the Soul, plus a bad home life. He used to say to me, "I don't know how anyone can believe in the Real Presence and yet leave."

I can. Sometimes, I want to scream at the little voice during the Consecration that says to me, "This is a lie."

Keep calling on Him, even when you feel empty and alone and like the whole thing is pointless. Go find a good priest that you can say to openly "I feel like this is pointless." I'm not kidding when I say that crying to my confessor kept me from walking away my first year back.

Look back over your life, and pick out all the times where you've experienced God and known in your heart that He's here and He loves you. It doesn't have to be anything crazy or cosmic...for me, it's walking on the beach or hearing the perfect song just when I need it, or hearing my baby cousins call my name from across the room.

We can try to live with 100% perfect faith, but I think if we never wonder, we've never really given ourselves the chance to GROW in it. We can't stay in our bubbles, and as uncomfortable as asking the hard questions can be, we usually come out stronger.

And if we're wrong? At least we know that our lives have been more peaceful, more honorable, and more loving than those who have walked away.

Hang in there.

Edited July 13, 2009 by MissyP89

[icelandic_iceskater]

Sweet! Thanks for the suggestions, Hassan & DtA. I'll check my parish library for those next time I'm around. If anyone has amy more suggestions... I'd appreciate em.
[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1918218' date='Jul 12 2009, 11:06 PM']Do you have to take a Metaphysics course at Holy Cross?[/quote]
I just looked through their course catalog, and I couldn't find it in there anywhere. Although they're such a small school that they rotate the classes they offer by year... maybe it's on next year's cycle. iono.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1918249' date='Jul 12 2009, 11:34 PM']Retreats have always worked for me, especially the silent kind.[/quote]
Awhile back, I kinda od'd on retreats. Bad idea. Then despite the fact that they made me feel spiritually out of place against the amazing faith of everyone else, I still kept going- just counted 10 that I attended in last year alone (although a couple were just one day type dealios) After awhile, it's pretty easy to become desensitized... retreats become everyday life. I mean, mass is still mass, adoration is still adoration, and confession is still confession. But I have those here. aaaaand yeah. Ever get like that?
[/end tangent]

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1918078' date='Jul 12 2009, 06:03 PM']I feel that I don't understand and that I am small as well. But that's not the problem. That's part of the answer. Admitting that you're small is realising that the Christian thing is beyond singular comprehension, but a collective witness to each other and the world in understand who God is, what he has done in the past and what he continues to do. Science is the same way. No one scientist is alone in his or her search for the truth. They have to put faith in the research and findings of other colleagues. Historians the same. The modern notion of total autonomy and individuality is irrational and preposterous. Remember that you believe cause others witness and attest to God's work!

+[/quote]


[quote name='MissyP89' post='1918279' date='Jul 12 2009, 10:58 PM']Only every single day of my life.

Back before my other half converted, we watched a good friend of ours leave the Church after a terrible Dark Night of the Soul, plus a bad home life. He used to say to me, "I don't know how anyone can believe in the Real Presence and yet leave."

I can. Sometimes, I want to scream at the little voice during the Consecration that says to me, "This is a lie."

Keep calling on Him, even when you feel empty and alone and like the whole thing is pointless. Go find a good priest that you can say to openly "I feel like this is pointless." I'm not kidding when I say that crying to my confessor kept me from walking away my first year back.

Look back over your life, and pick out all the times where you've experienced God and known in your heart that He's here and He loves you. It doesn't have to be anything crazy or cosmic...for me, it's walking on the beach or hearing the perfect song just when I need it, or hearing my baby cousins call my name from across the room.

We can try to live with 100% perfect faith, but I think if we never wonder, we've never really given ourselves the chance to GROW in it. We can't stay in our bubbles, and as uncomfortable as asking the hard questions can be, we usually come out stronger.

And if we're wrong? At least we know that our lives have been more peaceful, more honorable, and more loving than those who have walked away.

Hang in there. [/quote]


You both have so much greatness in your posts. Part of what makes them so great is your humility. Thanks for sharing them and being part of Phatmass.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1918319' date='Jul 12 2009, 10:28 PM']Sweet! Thanks for the suggestions, Hassan & DtA. I'll check my parish library for those next time I'm around. If anyone has amy more suggestions... I'd appreciate em.

I just looked through their course catalog, and I couldn't find it in there anywhere. Although they're such a small school that they rotate the classes they offer by year... maybe it's on next year's cycle. iono.


Awhile back, I kinda od'd on retreats. Bad idea. Then despite the fact that they made me feel spiritually out of place against the amazing faith of everyone else, I still kept going- just counted 10 that I attended in last year alone (although a couple were just one day type dealios) After awhile, it's pretty easy to become desensitized... retreats become everyday life. I mean, mass is still mass, adoration is still adoration, and confession is still confession. But I have those here. aaaaand yeah. Ever get like that?
[/end tangent][/quote]

Retreats don't have to be around a bunch of religious people. I have disappeared for weeks and just wandered in the wilderness or isolated beaches.

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1917648' date='Jul 11 2009, 11:52 PM']blahhhh. lately I've been feeling quite exasperated. My mind is so finite... There is so much out there that my fogged reason cannot comprehend... and cannot be believe without a faith that I apparently do not have. There are those ideas that are impossible to wrap my mind around... Like time. << that's been a big one recently. I don't know how to believe certain things... but I want nothing more for everything I've taught to be true! But maybe that's where trust comes in- where there is no faith. I dunno.

These past couple weeks it's been becoming too much... like the possibility that what the church teaches just might not be true... that the material world is all there is. It makes me pretty anxious. And I realize that the desire I have for all of this to be true should be proof enough that it is... but my mind keeps questioning.

Does anyone else ever feel like that?

Knowing rationally that there is Truth out there... and that ideas exist! There is a reality! But constantly questioning what this Truth is. It seems impossible to ever know for sure. Which I guess makes perfect sense, since for our human minds it is impossible. But just to believe in these Truths must be taken by a faith which I evidently do not have... sometimes it makes me feel sick.

I dunno. This anxiety & frustration has been reoccurring for awhile know, and I don't know how to get past it. I'm sure I'm not the only one on phatmass who has felt like this... [/quote]
i go through this for a few days every month. I am also pretty sure that a lot of Saints experienced this. There is a book that's called something like "Dark Night of the Soul", I think its about this and how it can last for a month or more. I think it says something like how God uses times like this to actually strengthen our faith so that once it ends we are even closer to him than before.

[Nihil Obstat]

Read Come Be My Light by/about Bl Mother Teresa!!! It's not exactly what you're going through, but I'm sure you've heard in recent years what her faith life was like. (ie. dead)
Amazing book.