God Doesn't Care

[Kitty]

Prayer consists of desperate words sent up to an ear that either does not exist, or does not listen. Relics are only material pieces of rotting bone. Communion is what it appears to be; bread and wine.

When a little boy's death from cancer is drawn out over the course of fourteen months, all the prayer, churchgoing, communion-taking, blessing and annointing in the world won't do you any good.

When a little boy's life is taken, amidst relics, prayers, and communion, it only says one thing to me: "God wanted this little boy to die a slow and painful death." After all, "God's will be done".

That is not a loving God to me.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Kitty

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919307' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:57 PM']Prayer consists of desperate words sent up to an ear that either does not exist, or does not listen. Relics are only material pieces of rotting bone. Communion is what it appears to be; bread and wine.

When a little boy's death from cancer is drawn out over the course of fourteen months, all the prayer, churchgoing, communion-taking, blessing and annointing in the world won't do you any good.

When a little boy's life is taken, amidst relics, prayers, and communion, it only says one thing to me: "God wanted this little boy to die a slow and painful death." After all, "God's will be done".

That is not a loving God to me.[/quote]

I'm so sorry.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919307' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:57 PM']Prayer consists of desperate words sent up to an ear that either does not exist, or does not listen. Relics are only material pieces of rotting bone. Communion is what it appears to be; bread and wine.

When a little boy's death from cancer is drawn out over the course of fourteen months, all the prayer, churchgoing, communion-taking, blessing and annointing in the world won't do you any good.

When a little boy's life is taken, amidst relics, prayers, and communion, it only says one thing to me: "God wanted this little boy to die a slow and painful death." After all, "God's will be done".

That is not a loving God to me.[/quote]

Whoa.....one thing at a time.

Basically your arguing that since people are allowed to suffer, then there must not be a god since you argue that a "loving" god would not allow people to suffer like this.

I argue that if suffering did not exist.....what would life be like? I mean.....if we all lived "fun" lives....with no pain or suffering....then wouldn't life be........empty of something? Life would be pointless as we would just be robotic in that we could only enjoy fun and not experience negativity of any kind.

So free will would not exist basically.

We believe that God wanted to share his love with us however he wanted it to be free choice from us and not from a bunch of robots.

That is a short argument on why pain and suffering exists with a God. I'm sure others can add more.

I ask you.....do you believe we have free will? Also, would the absence of pain and suffering would be proof of a god?

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[MissyP89]

God did not make death,
nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living.
For he fashioned all things that they might have being;
and the creatures of the world are wholesome,
and there is not a destructive drug among them
nor any domain of the netherworld on earth,
for justice is undying.
For God formed man to be imperishable;
the image of his own nature he made him.
But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world,
and they who belong to his company experience it.

--Wisdom 1:13-15, 2:23-24

[Kitty]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1919317' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:03 PM']I argue that if suffering did not exist.....what would life be like? I mean.....if we all lived "fun" lives....with no pain or suffering....then wouldn't life be........empty of something? Life would be pointless as we would just be robotic in that we could only enjoy fun and not experience negativity of any kind.[/quote]

No one knows what life would be like without suffering. After all, suffering is all mankind has ever known. People say there is no suffering in heaven. Obviously, a life (or afterlife) without suffering must be so wonderful that it can't exist in our world.

[quote]So free will would not exist basically.

We believe that God wanted to share his love with us however he wanted it to be free choice from us and not from a bunch of robots.

I ask you.....do you believe we have free will? Also, would the absence of pain and suffering would be proof of a god?[/quote]

Of course we have free will. Whether it is granted to us by a God, I don't know, but I fail to see how free will relates to suffering. Hardly anyone is WILLING to suffer, especially from a terminal illness. And we certainly don't will it upon ourselves.

I don't think suffering or absence of suffering proves (or would prove) the existence of God.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919363' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:40 AM']...
Of course we have free will. Whether it is granted to us by a God, I don't know, but I fail to see how free will relates to suffering. Hardly anyone is WILLING to suffer, especially from a terminal illness. And we certainly don't will it upon ourselves.[/quote]

Correct but our actions cause others to suffer. Not directly sometimes in the case of illnesses but I could go and torture someone to death.....I would be causing suffering. When we decide to be mean to someone, we cause suffering. Free will relates to suffering.

[quote]I don't think suffering or absence of suffering proves (or would prove) the existence of God.[/quote]

Yet you denounce the existence of God because people suffer in your first post. What is your point then? Your initial claim was that because people suffer, there is not a God......but now you say suffering or no suffering there is no God which makes your first post redundant.

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[Sojourner]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919363' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:40 AM']Hardly anyone is WILLING to suffer, especially from a terminal illness. And we certainly don't will it upon ourselves.[/quote]
I don't know that this is true. I think most people are willing to suffer if they see benefit for themselves or people they love in it. When we have purpose for suffering, we can go through just about anything ... I think John Paul II said something along those lines, and I believe it to be true.

What mother would not suffer for her child? I would suffer for my husband. If I learned I had cancer I would choose to suffer treatment for the long-term benefit I would hope to receive.

We always have a choice in these things. While it may not be an easy choice to make, we are rarely without options. And over and above the fact of suffering (which we all endure in one way or another), we have a choice of how we will respond to it. Suffering allows us to make a choice about who we are at our core. We can embrace bitterness, or we can embrace love. That response is a matter of will, and of how open we are to the graces made available to us.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Terra Firma

[Kitty]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1919370' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:46 AM']Correct but our actions cause others to suffer. Not directly sometimes in the case of illnesses but I could go and torture someone to death.....I would be causing suffering. When we decide to be mean to someone, we cause suffering. Free will relates to suffering.[/quote]

Yes, but I'm not talking about suffering as a result of another human. I'm talking about illness.



[quote]Yet you denounce the existence of God because people suffer in your first post. What is your point then? Your initial claim was that because people suffer, there is not a God......but now you say suffering or no suffering there is no God which makes your first post redundant.[/quote]

Proof of God's existence, for me, would be some sort of sign, whether it was a sign I could see, hear, or feel. Like a miracle, or an answered prayer. If people didn't suffer pain it wouldn't prove the existence of a God.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Kitty

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919363' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:40 PM']No one knows what life would be like without suffering. After all, suffering is all mankind has ever known. People say there is no suffering in heaven. Obviously, a life (or afterlife) without suffering must be so wonderful that it can't exist in our world.



Of course we have free will. Whether it is granted to us by a God, I don't know, but I fail to see how free will relates to suffering. Hardly anyone is WILLING to suffer, especially from a terminal illness. And we certainly don't will it upon ourselves.

I don't think suffering or absence of suffering proves (or would prove) the existence of God.[/quote]

It's not that free will = willingness to suffer. It's that Freewill= ability to chose evil. Which leads to suffering. Of course this little boy did not choose to suffer.

And at least one person willingly suffered. The same God who allows US to suffer allowed HIMSELF and His Son to suffer with us. And it wasn't a little suffering, either. It was full of physical pain and human emotions: betrayal, anger, sadness, abandonment. His death was the death reserved for the worst criminals and with a view to the most pain possible.

I'm so sorry this happened. But... do you really believe that he is still suffering? or that he is just... gone and there is nothing after death? To me that seems more hopeless than suffering.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919376' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:52 AM']Yes, but I'm not talking about suffering as a result of another human. I'm talking about illness.[/quote]

Doctors and the medical industry can do a lot to relieve a lot of suffering from illnesses. Free will on their part.

I guess what you really mean is [b]terminal [/b]illness. Basically since someone can get a terminal illness.....there must not be a God....right? Although the definition of terminal illness has changed throughout time as we learn more and more and we are able to prolong human life......I don't think you can drag free will out of this argument. Cancer used to be a gaurenteed terminal illness but with all the advances, death from cancer is not always certain and there are a lot of survivor stories out there because some human made a medical advancement.

[quote]Proof of God's existence, for me, would be some sort of sign, whether it was a sign I could see, hear, or feel. Like a miracle, or an answered prayer. If people didn't suffer pain it wouldn't prove the existence of a God.[/quote]

So what's up with the first post then?

What would prove the existence of God? You say a sign but you seem very ambiguous on what sign and I'm sure even if a sign happened you could explain it away as "chance" or "probability."



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[Kitty]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1919389' date='Jul 14 2009, 01:05 AM']So what's up with the first post then?

What would prove the existence of God? You say a sign but you seem very ambiguous on what sign and I'm sure even if a sign happened you could explain it away as "chance" or "probability."[/quote]

I'll give you an example. If I prayed to God "please, let this person be healed from their pain and suffering," and it was granted, then I would accept that God exists, and actually cares.

[Angel*Star]

That would be an I Dream of Jeannie god. It would be us that controlled the universe, not Him. And I am pretty sure we'd do a lousy job of it. I am not saying this because we are idiots, I am saying it because sometimes what one person wants is in direct conflict to what someone else wants.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Angel*Star

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919396' date='Jul 14 2009, 01:18 AM']I'll give you an example. If I prayed to God "please, let this person be healed from their pain and suffering," and it was granted, then I would accept that God exists, and actually cares.[/quote]

So your reducing this supposed great omnipotent God to a genie-in-a-lamp who will do whatever I ask if I get one wish?

Again...what you are getting at is that god would only exist if suffering was totally eradicated? Correct?

Also, you are making it as if God could only care if there was no suffering. So basically in your line of reasoning....God could only exist if no suffering existed which would reduce our free will to.....well....it wouldn't be true free will as we could never harm anyone. We would be basically robots in a way.

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[CatherineM]

My nephew died when he was 10 months old from a heart condition 33 years ago that is easily fixed today. Every time he quit breathing and went blue, I prayed that God would heal him. Each time, God said yes. Then came that day that God had to say no. God didn't will my nephew to die. It was an illness. Having to watch babies die pushed doctors harder to find a solution so that now children don't die from this defect. He was such a special little boy. His death destroyed the faith of my brother and sister in law. I don't think my nephew would have wanted that to happen.

[Brother Adam]

[img]http://www.podbean.com/wp-content/blogs6/193/uploads/2004passionofthechristcross.jpg[/img]
Kitty, Jesus love you this much.


"[b]Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake[/b], and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church." Colossians 1:24

Part of growing in holiness is to not only accept, but to embrace suffering in whatever form it may come, because through our own sufferings we participate in the redemption of Christ. God has taken pain, and through the cross, redeemed it. Suffering does not come from God, but through our own cooperation suffering brings about great grace.

[quote]I'll give you an example. If I prayed to God "please, let this person be healed from their pain and suffering," and it was granted, then I would accept that God exists, and actually cares.[/quote]

"He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet." - Matthew 12:39

For as much suffering as I have seen in my life, suffering that results sometimes in the death of little children, I have accepted that while I wanted them to be healed, God wanted them home. I have seen God use suffering to bring people to salvation, and I have seen people who may never come to grips that God allows some to suffer for now, briefly, to bring about the ultimate good of salvation and eternal glory. God's plan is not our plan, but God loves us infinitely, more than our minuscule finite minds can imagine right now. I also know people who have been miraculously healed through relics, through prayer, and most of us, through the sacraments.

It is up to us to decide what to do with the own suffering that we have chosen for now - it can lead us either to eternal life, as John Paul II taught us, or it can lead to eternal death, as the devil wants.

You may reject him right now, but God loves you, and cares for you. God's plan for your life may not be to be happy right now, but he does want you holy, because he is your Father and you are his child. He wants to give you, unimaginable blessings, in this life, and the life to come, if only you will let him.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Brother Adam