God Doesn't Care

[Varg]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1919317' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:03 PM']Whoa.....one thing at a time.

Basically your arguing that since people are allowed to suffer, then there must not be a god since you argue that a "loving" god would not allow people to suffer like this.

I argue that if suffering did not exist.....what would life be like? I mean.....if we all lived "fun" lives....with no pain or suffering....then wouldn't life be........empty of something? Life would be pointless as we would just be robotic in that we could only enjoy fun and not experience negativity of any kind.

So free will would not exist basically.

We believe that God wanted to share his love with us however he wanted it to be free choice from us and not from a bunch of robots.

That is a short argument on why pain and suffering exists with a God. I'm sure others can add more.

I ask you.....do you believe we have free will? Also, would the absence of pain and suffering would be proof of a god?

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Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/linkin+park/track/leave+out+all+the+rest"]Linkin Park - Leave Out All the Rest[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote]She's lost someone very close to her and all you can do is argue about something that she has understandably lost faith in? You're cold.
Kitty, I'm so sorry for what happened.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Varg

[Varg]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1919317' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:03 PM']Whoa.....one thing at a time.

Basically your arguing that since people are allowed to suffer, then there must not be a god since you argue that a "loving" god would not allow people to suffer like this.

I argue that if suffering did not exist.....what would life be like? I mean.....if we all lived "fun" lives....with no pain or suffering....then wouldn't life be........empty of something? Life would be pointless as we would just be robotic in that we could only enjoy fun and not experience negativity of any kind.

So free will would not exist basically.

We believe that God wanted to share his love with us however he wanted it to be free choice from us and not from a bunch of robots.

That is a short argument on why pain and suffering exists with a God. I'm sure others can add more.

I ask you.....do you believe we have free will? Also, would the absence of pain and suffering would be proof of a god?

----------------
Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/linkin+park/track/leave+out+all+the+rest"]Linkin Park - Leave Out All the Rest[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote]She's lost someone very close to her and all you can do is argue about something that she has understandably lost faith in? You're cold.

Kitty, I'm so sorry for what happened.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Varg

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919307' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:57 PM']Prayer consists of desperate words sent up to an ear that either does not exist, or does not listen. Relics are only material pieces of rotting bone. Communion is what it appears to be; bread and wine.

When a little boy's death from cancer is drawn out over the course of fourteen months, all the prayer, churchgoing, communion-taking, blessing and annointing in the world won't do you any good.

When a little boy's life is taken, amidst relics, prayers, and communion, it only says one thing to me: "God wanted this little boy to die a slow and painful death." After all, "God's will be done".

That is not a loving God to me.[/quote]

its not that because suffering exists, God doesnt. It's that suffering exists, so lets hope theres a God to give it meaning. What I mean is, whether or not God exists suffering is always going to be with us. If there isnt a God though, there can be no point to it. There can be no hope. We live and we die and in the middle, no matter what, is pain.

But if there is a God, there is hope and there is love and there is an end to the suffering. We believe that not only does our God provide this hope and this love, but he is also intimately familiar with our suffering. So much so that he knows the way through it because he's been there. He's been through the worst suffering and death and back again, and he went through all that just so he could show us the way and walk the path with us - because he loves us, and wouldn't dare leave us in a hopeless world filled with pain and without love.

[Dan]

Can I say that I understand the actions of God?

No, not at all, since if He was small enough for me to understand, He would not be big enough to be my God.

[Winchester]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1919426' date='Jul 14 2009, 02:16 AM']If there was no evil there would be no concept of good. God allows evil and suffering so that the good has meaning. God also gives you no hardship that you are no capable of overcoming. the reason for them might be different. Like spiritual growth, strengthening a relationship, building team work, or what ever other reason.[/quote]
Not a Catholic position.

God permits evil because it is a result of the free choice that caused the Fall. To say good without evil does not have meaning is to argue that life befoe the Fall had no meaning. Further, it argues that God has no meaning.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919307' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:57 AM']Prayer consists of desperate words sent up to an ear that either does not exist, or does not listen. Relics are only material pieces of rotting bone. Communion is what it appears to be; bread and wine.

When a little boy's death from cancer is drawn out over the course of fourteen months, all the prayer, churchgoing, communion-taking, blessing and annointing in the world won't do you any good.

When a little boy's life is taken, amidst relics, prayers, and communion, it only says one thing to me: "God wanted this little boy to die a slow and painful death." After all, "God's will be done".

That is not a loving God to me.[/quote]
Just because we don't get the answer we so desperately desire doesn't mean God isn't listening.
I am sorry for the loss of the little one. I'm glad you got to say goodbye and he was loved and cared for until the end.

I don't know how prayer works, I don't think any of us does, I do think its important that we ask for the people and things important to us.
My best friend's daughter Mary Rose died slowly of a neuroblastomic brain tumor. She was 6. All the prayers in the world couldn't save her without an outright miracle and science hasn't advanced that far. God didn't cause the brain tumor, something in her genes/environment simply made it grow, and science hadn't advanced enough to cure it. Either of her parents or family would have traded places with her in a heartbeat, but we didn't get that option.

Unless they drop dead or have a tragic accident nobody gets out of this world without pain or suffering. We really all are going to die, there is no get out free card, although many people act as though they will live forever and this is a dress rehearsal. Life is infinitely precious, and can be tragically short, and you sometimes won't know until that last moment that it really is the end, so everyday life and love are important.
The only thing we can do in the face of universal suffering to tell the people we love everyday how much we do love them and value them are in our lives. Again I am very sorry for the loss of the little one, and may you eventually find the comfort and peace you seek.

[bonkers]

You know what I think su.cks? All those horrible people that get the opportunity to repent on their deathbed, and get to go to heaven and all the nice people who get his by cars and die in plane crashes who never get an opportunity to repent and go to hell.

Edited July 14, 2009 by bonkers

[Sojourner]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1919486' date='Jul 14 2009, 10:54 AM']You know what I think su.cks? All those horrible people that get the opportunity to repent on their deathbed, and get to go to heaven and all the nice people who get his by cars and die in plane crashes who never get an opportunity to repent and go to hell.[/quote]
Who says they don't get an opportunity to repent?

[bonkers]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1919491' date='Jul 14 2009, 09:58 AM']Who says they don't get an opportunity to repent?[/quote]

The morgue people.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1919486' date='Jul 14 2009, 09:54 AM']You know what I think su.cks? All those horrible people that get the opportunity to repent on their deathbed, and get to go to heaven and all the nice people who get his by cars and die in plane crashes who never get an opportunity to repent and go to hell.[/quote]

We simply can not know the last thought that goes on in a person's mind before death.

[Theologian in Training]

Kitty,

The theology and philosophy has been covered, and you seem to be going in circles, so I will make it a little more concrete for you.

I was born with a heart murmur that developed into something that required open-heart surgery. After a couple of years the original one was no longer working right, so they had to do a second open-heart. As you can imagine, I prayed like Jesus in the Garden, begging and pleading that I did not have to go through it all again. Laying in a bed, in an empty hallway, outside of the ER knowing what is going to happen, and begging that it wouldn't. Although, God did not take away that "cup" from me, He did give me a calm, a calm I could never explain, that went from the tips of my toes to the top of my head, I was then resolved to be operated on and was. After that, I had two more surgeries for the pacemaker they had to put in. All of that at the tender age of 16.

Then I was coming back from having my staples removed with my mom and we hear that there has been a shooting at the place my father worked, I prayed that nothing happened, but knew, just knew that something did.

Afterwards, I wanted to be an atheist, but, for some odd reason prayed every night. In fact, when we moved back home (since we were out of state at the time) I wound up in a church parking lot praying, screaming, yelling, cursing at the crucifix sitting on the edge of the parking lot, hidden away by a little wooded area. I refused to go into the church, because I would not give God the satisfaction.

The last thing I wanted was to know, believe or love God, because how can my God do that to me? How can a loving God love someone so much to make him suffer to such a degree?

Yet, that time spent before the crucifix helped me to see things differently, I understood suffering differently, I even "met" Mary there. I realized that suffering helps us to know what Jesus did for us, it s.ucks, I know, it is not something we want to have to go through, I know, but the fact of the matter is, Jesus suffered and died for us so that we could live in Him. Think about this, Jesus suffered in our human nature and, like it or not, that was His greatest example of love.

When we suffer we understand the type of love He has for us, we understand that the cross in our life is a bouquet of roses in Heaven, thorns and all. As strange as it may sound, we can learn to love Him more when we suffer, because we are imperfect people striving to live in the presence of a perfect God and in order to do that, there is sacrifices that need to be made, yet, all too often we don't see it in that way, we see it as suffering, we see it as God being mean, masochistic and non-loving.

Did you ever hear the story of the man who decided not to go to church because he didn't want to? I am paraphrasing, but, essentially, he heard a noise, it was a group of birds, I believe trying to go through the window, and they kept hurting themselves. The man wished he could communicate with the birds but knew it was pointless, and, at that moment, he wished he could become a bird to explain to them the danger they were causing themselves. He then understood the reason for the Incarnation.

God became one of us, out of love, because otherwise He would be "too big and scary."

But I digress. I have a friend who lost her nephew, when he was very young, she remembers vividly asking God, "Why?" And, she heard a voice, assuring her that just as she suffers emotionally and psychologically, so too did Christ, He suffered in every way, by the, unbelievably, small way that we suffer, we understand a little bit more about what Christ did, and hopefully grow in love for Him as a result.

I know that is probably not the best answer, but I tried.

God bless

Fr. Brian

Edited July 14, 2009 by Theologian in Training

[Sojourner]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1919499' date='Jul 14 2009, 11:04 AM']The morgue people.[/quote]
Huh ... I didn't realize they had an ability to see into people's souls.



Every person has an opportunity to choose how they will respond to the truth that has been revealed to them, whether that's in the instant before they die or in the years leading up to that instant. We all have a chance.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1919475' date='Jul 14 2009, 08:05 AM']Just because we don't get the answer we so desperately desire doesn't mean God isn't listening.
I am sorry for the loss of the little one. I'm glad you got to say goodbye and he was loved and cared for until the end.

Unless they drop dead or have a tragic accident nobody gets out of this world without pain or suffering. We really all are going to die, there is no get out free card, although many people act as though they will live forever and this is a dress rehearsal. Life is infinitely precious, and can be tragically short, and you sometimes won't know until that last moment that it really is the end, so everyday life and love are important.
The only thing we can do in the face of universal suffering to tell the people we love everyday how much we do love them and value them are in our lives. Again I am very sorry for the loss of the little one, and may you eventually find the comfort and peace you seek.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
cmom said it better than i. i will remember you and your loved one in my prayers today.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1919512' date='Jul 14 2009, 10:32 AM']Every person has an opportunity to choose how they will respond to the truth that has been revealed to them, whether that's in the instant before they die or in the years leading up to that instant. We all have a chance.[/quote]

Yeah, but people who know they are going to die frequently find some sort of spiritual solace before their death and have an opportunity that other people who die instantly don't get.

[bonkers]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1919502' date='Jul 14 2009, 11:11 AM']We simply can not know the last thought that goes on in a person's mind before death.[/quote]

Sometimes a bullet.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1919541' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:04 PM']Yeah, but people who know they are going to die frequently find some sort of spiritual solace before their death and have an opportunity that other people who die instantly don't get.[/quote]
So? The question isn't spiritual solace, but eternal destination. Spiritual solace does not determine eternal destination. Your response to the grace offered to you does.

People who die instantly also don't get to make wills. Or say goodbye to the people they love. That's why it's important that we always have a sense of our own mortality so that if we don't have the luxury of planning our own exit we still have our affairs ordered. It's foolish not to take full advantage of the time we do have available to us, then whine about the fact that we weren't ready when crisis hits. Death is a certainty. We're all going to get there. If spiritual solace in the face of death is so important to you, think how much it could benefit you if you sought it out before your untimely demise.

[Apotheoun]

As my dad told me:

[i]God knows what it is like to suffer, because He took on all the brokenness of the human condition when He entered into the world as a man among men, and He experienced more pain than any other man in history when He died upon the cross, because He united Himself with all who suffer pain and loss. God knows what it is like.[/i]

My dad died of pancreatic cancer less then two weeks after saying this, and he never doubted that it was God who helped him through his own time of trial, his own Gethsemane, and that is a true miracle.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Varg' post='1919439' date='Jul 14 2009, 05:08 AM']She's lost someone very close to her and all you can do is argue about something that she has understandably lost faith in? You're cold.
Kitty, I'm so sorry for what happened.[/quote]

Now I understand that I can't read his mind nor his heart but I doubt that he is trying to sound cold or cruel. Please keep in mind that it is very difficult to talk online and the things that we say can be misinterpreted because we are not face to face and we do not see each other's facial expressions or hear their tone of voice which effect how we interpret what others are saying.

Some people are just more analytical in nature and but are not trying to sound mean at all. That's just how they're wired. Could he have tried to make his posts sound more compassionate perhaps but I wouldn't call him being rude.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919363' date='Jul 14 2009, 01:40 AM']No one knows what life would be like without suffering. After all, suffering is all mankind has ever known. People say there is no suffering in heaven. Obviously, a life (or afterlife) without suffering must be so wonderful that it can't exist in our world.[/quote]

If suffering can be redeemed, then life without suffering does exist in our world.

[quote name='Kitty' post='1919396' date='Jul 14 2009, 02:18 AM']I'll give you an example. If I prayed to God "please, let this person be healed from their pain and suffering," and it was granted, then I would accept that God exists, and actually cares.[/quote]

Would you accept the answer to your prayer if the healing came through death?

Think about it: we will all die someday somehow. Isn't it possible that in most cases, God's more compassionate response to prayer is to allow a death that would lead to eternal healing and happiness instead of a physical healing that will only be temporary? Lazarus and Jairus' daughter were both raised from the dead by Jesus, but both still experienced a final death a few years or decades later. The miracles themselves did not deliver these people from pain and suffering; they only served as testimonies to the Gospel of eternal freedom from pain and suffering through the love of God who will bring about the resurrection of the dead.

Edited July 14, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Lil Red]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1919544' date='Jul 14 2009, 10:05 AM']Sometimes a bullet.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
how crude.