Catholics And Sinful Friendship

[iheartjp2]

You know, this type of thing is what annoys me about most orthodox Catholics in general. I'm as orthodox, conservative, w/e as the next guy, but I don't think that cutting yourself off from anyone you disagree with is the answer to the world's problems. Lots of people view us as "holier-than-thou", pretentious, snotty people and time and again, they're proven right. You don't have to agree with anyone on anything that conflicts with your views, but to deny someone your friendship when they may be in dire need of a [i]true[/i] friend, that goes beyond how others look at you. Don't you realize that it's not about [i]us[/i] (us being the scandalous or the scandalized) but it's about God and how he sees fit to move? He can do ANYTHING. Why don't we just follow his example and give love, charity, and yes, even friendship to those who need it from us?

Edited July 17, 2009 by iheartjp2

[BG45]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1922288' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:22 AM']Christ was friends with sinners He asked to repent or they where repentant. I'd like to know where Christ made friends with a unrepentant sinner, honestly I can't think of one.[/quote]

Nor can I offhand, but to play Devil's Advocate, which I enjoy sometimes, like in this thread...Nicodemus. He doubted. So did Thomas and Philip. Saint Thomas and Saint Philip are portrayed with the saintly halos in Christian artwork. Nicodemus however, we do not know if he truly came to believe. He is never portrayed with the saintly halo, not even in the Stations of the Cross depictions when he goes with Saint Joseph of Arimethea to take down the body of the Lord from the Cross. Therefore since we can not be sure of the state of Nicodemus heart when he died, we can not be assured if he was a repentant sinner or not. Despite that some sources claim he is a Saint venerated on August 3rd.

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1922298' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:28 AM']If Christ did give scandal, He would have done so for a grave reason. Committing an action that would be scandalous is acceptable for a grave reason.

Also, those to whom He could have given scandal might have been so depraved that His actions really had no influence on their being scandalized. (They would have been scandalized no matter what He did). In that case the sin of scandal would not have been committed.[/quote]

It's quite possible they would have been scandalized no matter what He did, however it is quite difficult to judge any man's heart, let alone those long dead. We know from both the Bible and from secular historical texts that those groups which so persecuted Christ were hardly a united lot; one example being that of Saint Joseph of Arimathea, who was most likely a member of the Sanhedrin himself.

Although to use your own example of walking through town with a woman in lingerie; a holy man that is known and revered does so. Does he lead others into sin in your opinion, or is he giving grave cause to do so in the hopes of shocking people out of their depravity? This seems to be the way of scandal you are ascribing to Christ so as to escape the implied reasoning that by causing scandal one engages in a grave and mortal sin, which is something that He who was without sin would be unable to accomplish.

Edited July 17, 2009 by BG45

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1922330' date='Jul 17 2009, 12:48 AM']You know, this type of thing is what annoys me about most orthodox Catholics in general. I'm as orthodox, conservative, w/e as the next guy, but I don't think that cutting yourself off from anyone you disagree with is the answer to the world's problems. Lots of people view us as "holier-than-thou", pretentious, snotty people and time and again, they're proven right. You don't have to agree with anyone on anything that conflicts with your views, but to deny someone your friendship when they may be in dire need of a [i]true[/i] friend, that goes beyond how others look at you. Don't you realize that it's not about [i]us[/i] (us being the scandalous or the scandalized) but it's about God and how he sees fit to move? He can do ANYTHING. Why don't we just follow his example and give love, charity, and yes, even friendship to those who need it from us?[/quote]

If someone is truly in dire need of a true friend, I don't think that any scandal caused by that relationship would be unnecessary.

As has been stated, one can commit an action that would otherwise be scandalous for a grave reason.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

Pretty lame example. Anyone that thinks "Because Resurrexi does it means it's alright" either doesn't know their faith very well or is far to wrapped up in you. It seems pretty naive.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1922344' date='Jul 17 2009, 12:56 AM']Pretty lame example. Anyone that thinks "Because Resurrexi does it means it's alright" either doesn't know their faith very well or is far to wrapped up in you. It seems pretty naive.[/quote]

Perhaps my example wasn't wonderful, but it isn't much different than the example of a Catholic with a disposition from abstinence eating meat on a Friday in Lent in public without a good reason and without letting those eating with him know that he has a disposition.

[OraProMe]

The example from the book is pretty lame too. Any sane person would just think "he's not a very good catholic" or "he's just breaking the rule".

It's still based on the presumption that because X does this it must be acceptable.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1922358' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:04 AM']The example from the book is pretty lame too. Any sane person would just think "he's not a very good catholic" or "he's just breaking the rule".

It's still based on the presumption that because X does this it must be acceptable.[/quote]

Many people aren't very informed about their obligations as Catholics.

For this reason, any Catholic well-educated about his faith needs to give the best example he can.

[OraProMe]

No he doesn't. It's the individuals responsibility to be educated about their faith not yours. Besides, you can easily tell them what their obligations without isolating yourself from anyone who doesn't behave impeccably.

[heavenseeker]

idk. but hate the sin, love the sinner

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1922404' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:18 AM']No he doesn't. It's the individuals responsibility to be educated about their faith not yours.[/quote]

This kind of attitude will never help restore morals to society.

It may be each one's responsibility to educate himself about his obligations, but we also are called to help others become better Catholics.

[OraProMe]

And shunning people because you disapprove of their behaviour will help restore morals to society? You can't save the world by hiding from it.

Edited July 17, 2009 by OraProMe

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1922465' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:36 AM']And shunning people because you disapprove of their behaviour will help restore morals to society? You can't save the world by hiding from it.[/quote]

To avoid what unnecessarily leads others to sin will help restore morals to society.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1922348' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:59 AM']Perhaps my example wasn't wonderful, but it isn't much different than the example of a Catholic with a disposition from abstinence eating meat on a Friday in Lent in public without a good reason and without letting those eating with him know that he has a disposition.[/quote]

I in no way intend to sound snarky here, but do you mean 'dispensation'? I kinda went when I read disposition, and wasn't sure.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1922472' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:39 AM']I in no way intend to sound snarky here, but do you mean 'dispensation'? I kinda went when I read disposition, and wasn't sure.[/quote]



Yes, dispensation is what I meant.

[Resurrexi]

Forgive my unpleasant disposition not to type dispensation correctly.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1922471' date='Jul 17 2009, 02:38 AM']To avoid what unnecessarily leads others to sin will help restore morals to society.[/quote]

But what about the people we avoid? While we may be helping 'others' by avoiding sinners by your logic, what about the sinners themselves? If we dissolve and shun relationships with them, how will they find Christ?

If a house is on fire, should no one care about the people inside, because we're risking ourselves trying to save them?

Edited July 17, 2009 by MissyP89

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1922471' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:38 AM']To avoid what unnecessarily leads others to sin will help restore morals to society.[/quote]

Cutting yourself off from people who lead sinful lives will provide them with no alternative example.

You're not the only one/thing who can lead people to evil. But (from a Catholic perspective) people like you are the only one's who can lead them away from it.

[Kitty]

I'm friends with heroin addicts and gay people. Does this make me a sinner?

Uh, no.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1922475' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:42 AM']But what about the people we avoid? While we may be helping 'others' by avoiding sinners by your logic, what about the sinners themselves? If we dissolve and shun relationships with them, how will they find Christ?

If a house is on fire, should no one care about the people inside, because we're risking ourselves trying to save them?[/quote]

If you personally being friends with someone would cause scandal (in many situations it would not), then the best thing you can do for someone would be to pray for him.

I have had a friend in the past whom I decided to avoid. He had become an adamant atheist who hated all religions, especially Catholicism (the religion of the school that he attended). I decided that his friendship was certainly not helping me grow in holiness. If anything, it would only lead me away from God. The only thing I could do to help him was pray for him.

I decided to end our friendship rather than risk my own soul in trying to help the soul of another. Even if one saves 100,000 souls, what will it profit him if he loses his own?

Edited July 17, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

Oh my, that is horrid and so stupid. Why couldn't you just agree not to talk about it? Diversity of opinion is a good thing, even if someone is wrong.

Wow, you don't answer his calls. I'm a little disgusted (yeah, I saw it before you edited your post).

And if being friends with an atheist is a danger to your faith then your faith is pretty weak.

Edited July 17, 2009 by OraProMe