Catholics And Sinful Friendship

[OraProMe]

Do you think he called you just to argue about religion?

[Resurrexi]

Even if he did not argue about religion, his conversation was still anything but pure, and usually the conversation would somehow turn to religion.

That said, do you or do you not believe that we are to avoid near occasions of sin?

[OraProMe]

Yes. But I think we'd disagree on what constitutes an occasion of sin or even sin itself.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1922535' date='Jul 17 2009, 02:38 AM']This is why I can't take you seriously anymore. So much Latin, so little charity and experience.[/quote]

Do you think that I take someone seriously who accepts most of what the Church teaches but denies several important dogmas?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1922544' date='Jul 17 2009, 02:45 AM']Yes. But I think we'd disagree on what constitutes an occasion of sin or even sin itself.[/quote]

I'm sure that most who post on Phatmass would say that several actions that you hold to be innocuous are actually gravely sinful.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1922546' date='Jul 17 2009, 02:48 AM']I'm sure that most who post on Phatmass would say that several actions that you hold to be innocuous are actually gravely sinful.[/quote]

So would I. What's your point?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1922545' date='Jul 17 2009, 02:45 AM']Do you think that I take someone seriously who accepts most of what the Church teaches but denies several important dogmas?[/quote]

1. I don't think you understand my position, because I don't accept a few dogma's and deny others.

2. I don't think you take anyone seriously if they disagree with you. Which you've proven with your little anecdote. That's your problem.

Edited July 17, 2009 by OraProMe

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1922547' date='Jul 17 2009, 02:57 AM']So would I. What's your point?[/quote]

I'm genuinely interested to hear what these things are that I apparently feel are morally acceptable but many others here feel are not morally acceptable.

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1922548' date='Jul 17 2009, 02:58 AM']1. I don't think you understand my position, because I don't accept a few dogma's and deny others.[/quote]

I know that you didn't accept the immorality of homosexual acts.

I know that you also apparently didn't feel that the Church should be telling couples what sort of sex is acceptable, which seems to imply that other sexual acts that the Church holds to be immoral are actually acceptable.

You are, according to the thread on England, considering becoming Anglican, which seems to imply that you do not believe that the Church of Christ [i]subsistit in[/i] the Catholic Church.

I may be totally mistaken on all three of these accounts, so I apologize if they do not correctly reflect your views.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1922551' date='Jul 17 2009, 03:12 AM']I'm genuinely interested to hear what these things are that I apparently feel are morally acceptable but many others here feel are not morally acceptable.




I know that you didn't accept the immorality of homosexual acts.

I know that you also apparently didn't feel that the Church should be telling couples what sort of sex is acceptable, which seems to imply that other sexual acts that the Church holds to be immoral are actually acceptable.

You are, according to the thread on England, considering becoming Anglican, which seems to imply that you do not believe that the Church of Christ [i]subsistit in[/i] the Catholic Church.

I may be totally mistaken on all three of these accounts, so I apologize if they do not correctly reflect your views.[/quote]

Who said that you consider some things here sinful which others don't? I didn't. I said I agree with you. There are many things I consider moral that most here don't.

The homosexuality question has been debated multiple times and no one has provided any reasonable proof that sex must be procreative. But there are other threads for that discussion so we wont go into it, okay?

You should read my posts in the England thread in their proper context. When I said I have lots and lots of study to do. I have this method, right? I think of every single objection I can to a religion/theory and do my best to convince myself that the "other side" is wrong and look at the arguments from both sides. If I get to a point where I can't prove the other side wrong then I start looking at it more objectively.

That way I encounter other peoples beliefs and can still be convinced that I'm right.

The subsistit in would be one of those things I have to do a lot of study on, so please don't make assumptions.

Edited July 17, 2009 by OraProMe

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1922554' date='Jul 17 2009, 03:25 AM']Who said that you consider some things here sinful which others don't? I didn't. I said I agree with you. There are many things I consider moral that most here don't.[/quote]

I'm sorry. I misunderstood you.

[cmotherofpirl]

Rexi did it ever occur to you that your atheist friend desperately wanted talked out of atheism??Did it occur to you that abandoning him means you are abandoning an opportunity given to you by God to convert someone? The people who argue the most are generally those who need us the most, and you yourself stated he kept bringing up the topic of religion.

[Varg]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1922478' date='Jul 17 2009, 02:48 AM']If you personally being friends with someone would cause scandal (in many situations it would not), then the best thing you can do for someone would be to pray for him.

I have had a friend in the past whom I decided to avoid. He had become an adamant atheist who hated all religions, especially Catholicism (the religion of the school that he attended). I decided that his friendship was certainly not helping me grow in holiness. If anything, it would only lead me away from God. The only thing I could do to help him was pray for him.

I decided to end our friendship rather than risk my own soul in trying to help the soul of another. Even if one saves 100,000 souls, what will it profit him if he loses his own?[/quote]Disgraceful.

[MIKolbe]

i kinda agree with Varg.

[Maggyie]

Well I can sort of understand where he is coming from - if one is weak in one's faith or not well-catechized it might not be a good idea to be friends with a well-educated atheist because he or she could possibly lead you away. I have seen this happen even with msyelf, hanging out with lukewarm Catholics, instead of me lighting them on fire their lukewarmness started to rub off on me. However it's also wrong to isolate ourselves and only talk to people whom we agree with. If I tried to do that I would have hardly any friends at all.

Yes we are supposed to avoid occasions of sin, but we are not supposed to shun people, there is a difference...

[philothea]

[quote]Is it morally acceptable for a Catholic to be friends with someone if his friendship with that person would be an unnecessary near occasion of sin to himself or needlessly cause scandal to others?[/quote]

As presented, OF COURSE it's NOT acceptable to put yourself in unnecessary near occasions of sin, or cause needless scandal.

However, I don't know that Resurrexi's examples are the best demonstration. Most Christians have no problem being friends with atheists or homosexuals or people who are, ah, deficient in the clothing department.

OTOH, if you're struggling with faith, maybe spending time with the person who likes to hammer on your weak spots is not a great idea. I don't think anyone here would say a recovering alcoholic should hang out with their drinking buddies. Or that someone who'd engaged in an affair ought to, after breaking it off, become friends with their lover. Right?

And scandal can be an issue, too -- though how someone dresses or whether they eat meat on Fridays is not a serious concern. [i]For the most part[/i] the teachings of the Catholic Church are well documented, publicly available, and under no dispute at all. But that's not universal -- how about socializing publicly with an abortion doctor? I doubt any of you would condone that.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Varg' post='1922674' date='Jul 17 2009, 08:37 AM']Disgraceful.[/quote]

i agree. i have a good friend i can only really describe as rabidly athiest and anti christian and it was actions like that, the shunning, holier than thou sort of croutons that helped make him that way. i still hang out with him all the time, even though he explicitly hates all christians until proven otherwise.


i think Resurexi should just go live on the top of a mountain, so he doesnt have to put up with us "lesser mortals"

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1922684' date='Jul 17 2009, 10:55 AM']Well I can sort of understand where he is coming from - if one is weak in one's faith or not well-catechized it might not be a good idea to be friends with a well-educated atheist because he or she could possibly lead you away. I have seen this happen even with msyelf, hanging out with lukewarm Catholics, instead of me lighting them on fire their lukewarmness started to rub off on me. However it's also wrong to isolate ourselves and only talk to people whom we agree with. If I tried to do that I would have hardly any friends at all.

Yes we are supposed to avoid occasions of sin, but we are not supposed to shun people, there is a difference...[/quote]

Indeed. Though I think Rexi has proven himself to be rather well-catechized.

I can see both sides here. My former ritual partner (from my time in the occult) is a militant atheist who is very hateful toward Christians. After I came back to the Church, it became very difficult and uncomfortable to be around him when he engaged in intense Christ-bashing. I had to distance myself from him, as much as it pained me to do...but in NO does that mean I'd ignore his calls, refuse to see him, or go out to dinner once in a while. That's counter-productive to spreading the Gospel, IMO.

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1922720' date='Jul 17 2009, 12:32 PM']i agree. i have a good friend i can only really describe as rabidly athiest and anti christian and it was actions like that, the shunning, holier than thou sort of croutons that helped make him that way. i still hang out with him all the time, even though he explicitly hates all christians until proven otherwise.


i think Resurexi should just go live on the top of a mountain, so he doesnt have to put up with us "lesser mortals"[/quote]
bashing Rexi for his actions and criticizing him for acting holier than thou isnt the answer. in doing that you are acting holier than thou to him.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1922752' date='Jul 17 2009, 11:48 AM']bashing Rexi for his actions and criticizing him for acting holier than thou isnt the answer. in doing that you are acting holier than thou to him.[/quote]

i am pretty sure im not holier than anybody...

i was criticizing his xenophobia and attitudes towards friendship. with good reason.

[Selah]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1922596' date='Jul 17 2009, 08:18 AM']Rexi did it ever occur to you that your atheist friend desperately wanted talked out of atheism??Did it occur to you that abandoning him means you are abandoning an opportunity given to you by God to convert someone? The people who argue the most are generally those who need us the most, and you yourself stated he kept bringing up the topic of religion.[/quote]

What Cmom said, and probably more. We are commanded to love and befriend those that need us. Sinful people are included. They all need God's love and compassion, and to shut them out of your life is to walk away from an incredible oppurtunity to share His love and message of grace with them.