John Calvin's Catholic Culture

[cappie]

Almost 500 years ago John Calvin led the most cataclysmic revolution in the history of Christendom. Could it be that the organisation which today most closely reflects Calvin's vision is the church he sought to destroy? If so, who would be more shocked? Sixteenth century Roman Catholics or Calvin himself?

In at least eight important respects the Catholic Church today manifests the French theologian's teaching as emphatically as, if not more than, the Protestant churches founded on his precepts.

The Vatican's strict moral teaching would cause John Calvin's usually stern visage to radiate with joy. Calvin compiled long lists of forbidden behaviour, including sex before marriage, adultery, homosexuality, abortion, drinking and gambling.

Today, no denomination defends the fundamentals of Calvin's theology of salvation more energetically than the Catholics. - Alan Austin, Online Opinion [url="http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=9180&page=0"]http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?a...9180&page=0[/url]

[Vincent Vega]

Lawl at the irony.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='cappie' post='1927065' date='Jul 21 2009, 07:23 PM']Today, no denomination defends the fundamentals of Calvin's theology of salvation more energetically than the Catholics. - Alan Austin, Online Opinion [url="http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=9180&page=0"]http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?a...9180&page=0[/url][/quote]

Minus of course the double predestination....amongst other things.

[CatherineM]

Martin Luther said, "We concede—as we must—that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received holy scriptures, baptism, the sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?" Deep down Protestant theologians know we have the truth, and it hasn't changed. They just don't like to think about it because they are too busy trying to be everything to everyone. If my choice is popular or right, I'd rather be right.

[Resurrexi]

I do not like comparing Catholicism to Calvinism at all.

Jansensim was condemned as a heresy centuries ago, and has pretty much died out. Let's keep it that way.

[Brother Adam]

T = Total Depravity = No.
U = Unconditional Election = No.
L = Limited Atonement = No.
I = Irresistible Grace = No.
P = Double Predestination = No.

Ugh....so how again does Catholic theology jive with Calvinism. I know phatcatholic would take huge issue with this opinion piece as well.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1928037' date='Jul 22 2009, 10:15 AM']T = Total Depravity = No.
U = Unconditional Election = No.
L = Limited Atonement = No.
I = Irresistible Grace = No.
P = Double Predestination = No.

Ugh....so how again does Catholic theology jive with Calvinism. I know phatcatholic would take huge issue with this opinion piece as well.[/quote]

P = Perseverance of the Saints

Now, I've talked about the TULIP thing with two Baptist seminarians at work and apparently there are different understandings of it. They talked me through the whole thing and, frankly, I agreed with what they were saying. Thing is, their teaching of TULIP is perhaps a bit "nicer" so, for example, Total Depravity doesn't mean we are completely ruined and doomed, but that we cannot attain salvation outside of grace. Of course, there is plenty of dispute about the TULIP among Calvinists, so like most things Protestant, you can't pin it down too well.

[Brother Adam]

Sorry, it was early when I typed that, I don't know why I said that for P, regardless, I have never met a 5 point Calvinist that came any where near a Catholic understanding of soteriology. I think we need to be honest about our differences.

[LouisvilleFan]

I do respect 5-point Calvinsts though. If you're gonna be Protestant, might as well go all the way to Calvinism... and if you're gonna be Calvinism, you might as well take the whole thing. Being a 3-point or 4-point Calvinist just seems lame and picky.

I like say I'm a 1-point Calvinist just to mess with 'em.

Edited July 22, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1928087' date='Jul 22 2009, 10:52 AM']P = Perseverance of the Saints

Now, I've talked about the TULIP thing with two Baptist seminarians at work and apparently there are different understandings of it. They talked me through the whole thing and, frankly, I agreed with what they were saying. Thing is, their teaching of TULIP is perhaps a bit "nicer" so, for example, Total Depravity doesn't mean we are completely ruined and doomed, but that we cannot attain salvation outside of grace. Of course, there is plenty of dispute about the TULIP among Calvinists, so like most things Protestant, you can't pin it down too well.[/quote]

If you read the actual texts of John Calvin, Total Depravity does in fact mean total depravity. He believes we are ruined and doomed and that we cannot attain salvation without grace but also that we stay ruined even with grace. Grace only permits us to go to Heaven but does not fix us. You can see this in some Praise and Worship songs, specifically "Your Love is Extravagant" in the line "Spread wide in the arms of Christ is the love that [i]covers[/i] sin." This is not the Church's belief. Christ's is the love that conquers sin and truly heals us. This total depravity is something upon which both Luther and Calvin agreed, however. The Calvinists who are true to Calvin's writings do have to deal rationally with double predestination and total depravity. The baptists may have a "nicer" way of expressing it but if you follow Calvin you still have to grapple with it. I know the baptists definitely have a different understanding of it than the Calvinists; this is why they are Baptists and not Calvinists nor Lutherans but they still take the the opinions of Calvin and Luther very seriously. I was talking to one friend whose dad is a minister and at a Southern Baptist Convention one minister was expressing an opinion and the main counter argument was that it contradicted Calvin. They still have to deal with this somehow and this is a major difference in the theology of John Calvin and the Catholic Church.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' post='1928154' date='Jul 22 2009, 01:06 PM']If you read the actual texts of John Calvin, Total Depravity does in fact mean total depravity. He believes we are ruined and doomed and that we cannot attain salvation without grace but also that we stay ruined even with grace.[/quote]

Yes, and I wanted to question my friends about that, but didn't know what to quote off the bat and only alluded to the "stronger" interpretation of TULIP in general. I need to follow up with them about that.

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' post='1928154' date='Jul 22 2009, 01:06 PM']The baptists may have a "nicer" way of expressing it but if you follow Calvin you still have to grapple with it. I know the baptists definitely have a different understanding of it than the Calvinists; this is why they are Baptists and not Calvinists nor Lutherans but they still take the the opinions of Calvin and Luther very seriously.[/quote]

Well, many Baptists are also Calvinists, and there are plenty who follow a more strict interpretation of TULIP as Calvin taught it. There isn't a denomination that calls itself "Calvinist." It's more like a philosophy that can be found among Baptists, Presbyterians, and unaffiliated Evangelicals. Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists tend to be more Armenian in their philosophy.

[CatherineM]

I find it interesting that they are only focusing on the sexual aspects. It's as if they think the Catholic Church only teaches against sex and nothing else. I'm pretty sure we don't preach against drinking and gambling per se.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1928390' date='Jul 22 2009, 03:12 PM']I'm pretty sure we don't preach against drinking and gambling per se.[/quote]

Did that conversation come up at your weekly bingo game?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1928852' date='Jul 22 2009, 09:12 PM']Did that conversation come up at your weekly bingo game? [/quote]

Not every old woman plays bingo. I was raised to play poker. My 4'10" grandmother used to greatly enjoy taking money off her WWII veteran sons in law. She would just laugh, and the Iwo Jima veteran would storm out of the room. My dad would look at me and say, "your mom's going to kill me." He started staking me to the game when I was 9-10. He figured if I lost he could explain it to my mom as a good teaching lesson.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1927160' date='Jul 21 2009, 08:21 PM']Martin Luther said, "We concede—as we must—that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received holy scriptures, baptism, the sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?" Deep down Protestant theologians know we have the truth, and it hasn't changed. They just don't like to think about it because they are too busy trying to be everything to everyone. If my choice is popular or right, I'd rather be right.[/quote]

I wonder how many Protestants realize how far off the path they have gotten? It amazes me the difference between Luther's attitude and current Protestants. Shouldn't modern Protestants have the same opinions and beliefs of Luther?

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