3,000 Low Temp Records Set This July!

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

Well, for one... we don't know what percentage of CO2 in the air is man-made. It's not like you can go and sort out the molecules based on how they were made. And, we don't even know if it really is the CO2 that is causing it all. There is so much involved with weather & climate systems, that it is way too early for anyone to really be making any accurate conclusions or even point any fingers.

I took the class from hell on this stuff. I survived and came out knowing more, but not able to form any real conclusions about this other than 'we don't know yet.'

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1932785' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:22 PM']I have no doubt that the climate of the earth is changing. However, I take issue with the idea that we humans are the main cause. We effect the local and sometimes regional climate, however we have been doing it all along, only the scale has changed. The variablity of output in the sun's energy, sunspots or lack thereof, volcanoes, ocean temps and currents, orbital changes etc ALL effect our climate far more than we do.
For 20 years all the scientists talked about was global cooling and they tottled out figures to prove their argument. This seems no different. The only thing constant is change, we simply haven't been cognizant of it.[/quote]
The problem I have with your opinion is that it's rather uninformed. You can rattle off all those buzz words about the sun and sunspots, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. Men and women dedicate years upon years to study these kinds of things, and you think that reading popular science articles gives you the authority to dismiss an entire body of research.

Give me a break.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1932501' date='Jul 26 2009, 03:25 PM']I've that mild summer = mild winter as well. I wonder if this will be the case... [/quote]

Last winter was very mild here in Michigan. But because the lakes never did warm up at all this summer, I am thinking that this winter we stand a very good chance of getting buried.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1932923' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:40 AM']The problem I have with your opinion is that it's rather uninformed. You can rattle off all those buzz words about the sun and sunspots, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. Men and women dedicate years upon years to study these kinds of things, and you think that reading popular science articles gives you the authority to dismiss an entire body of research.

Give me a break.[/quote]
So, because we're not scientists, we aren't allowed to criticize scientific findings? That's ridiculous.

People act as though scientists are purely altruistic in their pursuits. We accept interpreted data from studies as if a) there wasn't someone paying for the studies, b) the scientists involved didn't have a continued interest in staying employed, and c) scientists themselves didn't have an agenda.

The data is not the whole story. There is plenty of room for non-scientists to critique and have informed opinions about the interpretation, funding sources, and ulterior motives of scientists who hold that global warming is happening.

[StColette]

It definitely hasn't been low temps in Louisiana. I've seen enough 102+ in June & July to last me for a few years.

[peach_cube]

I am fortunate enough to here a Penn State with one of the Premiere Meteorological Schools in the country. I have had time to discuss this topic with several renown professors here, [url="http://www.geosc.psu.edu/people/faculty/personalpages/ralley/"]Dr. Richard Alley[/url], [url="http://www.met.psu.edu/people/j2n"]Dr. Jon Nese[/url], and [url="http://www.met.psu.edu/people/pgk2"]Dr. Paul Knight[/url]. Dr. Alley is an expert in Glaciology and Paleoclimate studies. He is a strong believer that man made CO2 is the main culprit for climate change. Dr. Nese is an expert in PA Climatology, weather extremes, and predictability and chaos theory. He was of the mind that man made CO2 may contribute to climate change but did not believe it to be the primary cause. Dr Knight who is an expert in climatology, does not believe that man made CO2 is significant enough to cause worldwide climate change.

I asked all three of them if they felt there was a consensus among experts on global warming and all of them did not believe that there was.

I know this has become a hot button issue here, I would just like to point out that you can find experts, well respected and well known experts, who support any side of the argument. What this tells us scientifically is that more research has to be done.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1933002' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:56 AM']Last winter was very mild here in Michigan. But because the lakes never did warm up at all this summer, I am thinking that this winter we stand a very good chance of getting buried.[/quote]

Yes, there was another AccuWeather.com article suggesting that the south and northeast are in for a severe winter. There have been three summers in the past century when temps rarely peaked above 85 degrees and all three were followed by unusually cold and snowy winters.

As for the climate change/global warming debate, unusually cool summers can occur during a general warming trend. They may even be more likely to occur during overall warming. Meteorology and economics are the two least-understood of all sciences because we can only study them in real time and there are thousands of factors involved in both short-term and long-term trends that are shifting at the same time.

I'm amazed at how delicate our climate is... one-tenth of one percent change in the sun's solar output causes a single degree change in the Pacific Ocean, which makes the difference between a winter with a few inches of snow or getting buried under a foot of ice and snow several times over, week-long power outages in the city (a month or longer in the country), etc.

Edited July 27, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Sojourner]

[quote name='peach_cube' post='1933023' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:49 AM']I know this has become a hot button issue here, I would just like to point out that you can find experts, well respected and well known experts, who support any side of the argument. What this tells us scientifically is that more research has to be done.[/quote]
I completely agree with this.

When I refer to the "myth" of global warming, I mean the popular understanding of it -- that it is a scientific fact, provable beyond the shadow of a doubt. This is the myth that is motivating us to spend billions of dollars we don't have to make changes that we don't know will work.

Right now, global warming as a movement is far more political and economic than it is scientific.

[StColette]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1933035' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:07 AM']Yes, there was another AccuWeather.com article suggesting that the south and northeast are in for a severe winter. There have been three summers in the past century when temps rarely peaked above 85 degrees and all three were followed by unusually cold and snowy winters.[/quote]

Usually for Louisiana when we have a hotter than average Summer, which we definitely have, then we usually have a very bad winter. Bad winter = one heck of an ice storm.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1933035' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:07 AM']Yes, there was another AccuWeather.com article suggesting that the south and northeast are in for a severe winter. There have been three summers in the past century when temps rarely peaked above 85 degrees and all three were followed by unusually cold and snowy winters.[/quote]

Heh. I'll be ready to start winterizing my home good and early then.

The lakes are all so cold, nearlt freezing cold. I've been thining that one good storm needs to come across those lakes late October and we'll be off to a snowy and cold start to a long long winter.

Maybe I need to pick up an extra roll of plastic for the windows.

[LouisvilleFan]

And for those who want to make a positive difference in our environment, Coal River Mountain is the last mountain standing in its area in West Virginia. Hard to believe... I checked it out on [url="http://maps.google.com/maps/mm?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=37.932825,-81.597519&spn=0.314116,0.806122&t=h&z=11"]Google Maps[/url] and (keeping mind these satellite pictures are usually 3-4 years dated) it's amazing -- and ugly -- what's happened. For those who haven't read about mountaintop removal mining, these coal companies blow off the tops of mountains to extract the coal, which are levelled off and what remains is a landscape of flat-topped "mountains" spotted with lakes full of arsenic, sulfur, and a soup of other minerals that are left behind... held behind a levee... [url="http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jan2009/tenn-j10.shtml"]or not[/url].

Regardless of how bad global warming actually is or isn't, saving a mountain and supporting a sustainable source of energy is one pro-life cause we should all be able to support. See more at [url="http://www.coalriverwind.org/"]CoalRiverWind.org[/url].

Edited July 27, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1933013' date='Jul 27 2009, 08:29 AM']So, because we're not scientists, we aren't allowed to criticize scientific findings? That's ridiculous.

People act as though scientists are purely altruistic in their pursuits. We accept interpreted data from studies as if a) there wasn't someone paying for the studies, b) the scientists involved didn't have a continued interest in staying employed, and c) scientists themselves didn't have an agenda.

The data is not the whole story. There is plenty of room for non-scientists to critique and have informed opinions about the interpretation, funding sources, and ulterior motives of scientists who hold that global warming is happening.[/quote]
No, what I'm saying is that if you're going to have the gall to decide something is completely false like that, you better have more knowledge about the topic than magazine articles.

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='morostheos' post='1932725' date='Jul 26 2009, 07:52 PM']Lastly, humans are part of many completely natural phenomena. Just because something is completely natural doesn't exclude humans involvement, we are part of nature after all. I don't see many people arguing that humans are not the cause of the completely natural phenomena known as childbirth.[/quote]


How can you say childbirth is completely natural? Most people contracept (and put what into our waterways for all of us?), we put people who create people (invitro) on a pedestal, we vote to kill the sick and old. What is natural about all that? We don't even let animal reproduce on their own. We "take care" of cats and dogs. We have limits on fish and wild life. Is anything natural anymore? We think we control everything in our lives. And we don't.

I think we should care for our world, but not at the expense of people. And for those who believe in global warming or changing or whatever you want to call it, please turn off all your air conditioners and ask stores to do the same. I am really not trying to argue, I am just saying.....

In the meantime, I am enjoying the cool July air because June was very hot.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Angel*Star

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1932492' date='Jul 26 2009, 02:13 PM']Global warming is such a myth ...[/quote]
Global warming doesn't mean that everything gets uniformly warmer. It's means that ambient temperature increases in the atmosphere cause climate change, i.e. a change in weather patterns. For example, record low temperatures in July.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1933072' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:05 AM']How can you say childbirth is completely natural? Most people contracept (and put what into our waterways for all of us?), we put people who create people (invitro) on a pedestal, we vote to kill the sick and old. What is natural about all that? We don't even let animal reproduce on their own. We "take care" of cats and dogs. We have limits on fish and wild life. Is anything natural anymore? We think we control everything in our lives. And we don't.[/quote]

What in the world are you talking about?



[quote]I think we should care for our world, but not at the expense of people. And for those who believe in global warming or changing or whatever you want to call it, please turn off all your air conditioners and ask stores to do the same. I am really not trying to argue, I am just saying.....

In the meantime, I am enjoying the cool July air because June was very hot.[/quote]
wonderful

[Hassan]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1933070' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:00 AM']No, what I'm saying is that if you're going to have the gall to decide something is completely false like that, you better have more knowledge about the topic than magazine articles.[/quote]


I wonder what they will tell their children and grandchildren

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1933089' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:40 AM']I wonder what they will tell their children and grandchildren[/quote]
"Well, you know, I read all about it on the internet and gosh darnit, you shouldn't believe everything you read..."

[Hassan]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1933038' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:09 AM']Right now, global warming as a movement is far more political and economic than it is scientific.[/quote]


That is shockingly wrong.

Anyway.


I fail to understand the logic.

If the data and mainstream scientific consensus is correct then if humans do not substantially alter their current environmental habits it will have a catastrophic effect on the planet and humanity as a whole.

There isn't another planet and there won't be another chance. How in the world do you decide that the best thing to do is gamble that we are so totally off the mark? You are essentially deciding to play Russian roulette with your family's future.

Who in the world hears that there is powerful, perhaps you feel not conclusive, evidence for a catastrophic event which we have a narrow window to curb (it seems to late to stop it) and decides that the sane, rational thing to do nothing and hope for the best.

[Hassan]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1933091' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:43 AM']"Well, you know, I read all about it on the internet and gosh darnit, you shouldn't believe everything you read..."[/quote]


"I do sincerely apologize for the famine but Obama, a secret Muslim pseudo-citizen, wanted to raise my taxes!"


"An expert employed by a think tank funded by Exxon-Mobile assured me that the whole matter was overblown"


"Well yes, but hippies were worried about it. How can I side with the hippies?!"


Who knows?

[StColette]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1933087' date='Jul 27 2009, 12:39 PM']What in the world are you talking about?[/quote]

My guess is she had multiple windows open and posted in the wrong one It gave me a great laugh though in reading your response lol