3,000 Low Temp Records Set This July!

[morostheos]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1932597' date='Jul 26 2009, 05:18 PM']This name cracks me up because it implies that the we are the cause of a completely natural phenomena. To think so is ridiculous. [/quote]

Firstly, why do you think the term "Global Climate Change" implies causality of any sort? It simply describes a lack of stasis in the global climate. The earth has gone through many periods of non-human caused global climate change throughout its history (for example - ice ages).

Secondly, do you have any qualifications to state belief in anthropomorphic global climate change is ridiculous? There are thousands of scientists that have spent many thousands of hours studying this problem who disagree with you. You are certainly free to have your own opinion, but I think it is unfair to say other opinions are ridiculous simply because they are not your own.

Lastly, humans are part of many completely natural phenomena. Just because something is completely natural doesn't exclude humans involvement, we are part of nature after all. I don't see many people arguing that humans are not the cause of the completely natural phenomena known as childbirth.





I think it is very interesting how most faithful Catholics I know do not "believe in" human-caused global climate change. There is nothing within the Catholic faith that precludes this that I am aware of, but people seem to associate it with liberal politics more than science. Many faithful Catholics tend to adopt negative views towards anything the liberal politicians tend to support, but I think on this particular issue they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. Sure, radical environmentalists use human-caused global climate change as an excuse to push for more population control and eugenics; liberal politicians use it to push for more government control and less personal freedom.

Just because our opponents use something to further their own means does not mean it is not true. Sure, I believe both radical environmentalists and liberal politicians are using the whole climate change issue in ways that distort the truth. However, as a scientist, I have read the peer-reviewed publications as well as the popular ones. I have studied and discussed the issue in detail in ecology classes and chemistry classes. There is a lot of evidence pointing towards anthropogenic climate change, too much for me to ignore.

Rather than deny the issue entirely, I think what is more important for us as Catholics is to form a genuinely catholic (small c) response to climate change - one that addresses the issue without ignoring certain unpopular populations (the unborn, for example) as well as respecting the rights of the individual, common good and subsidiarity. If we don't speak up for these points in the debate on what to do about climate change, who will? Whether we agree that humans are causing climate change or not, governments are acting on the issue.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='morostheos' post='1932725' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:52 PM']Firstly, why do you think the term "Global Climate Change" implies causality of any sort? It simply describes a lack of stasis in the global climate. The earth has gone through many periods of non-human caused global climate change throughout its history (for example - ice ages).

Secondly, do you have any qualifications to state belief in anthropomorphic global climate change is ridiculous? There are thousands of scientists that have spent many thousands of hours studying this problem who disagree with you. You are certainly free to have your own opinion, but I think it is unfair to say other opinions are ridiculous simply because they are not your own.

Lastly, humans are part of many completely natural phenomena. Just because something is completely natural doesn't exclude humans involvement, we are part of nature after all. I don't see many people arguing that humans are not the cause of the completely natural phenomena known as childbirth.

I think it is very interesting how most faithful Catholics I know do not "believe in" human-caused global climate change. There is nothing within the Catholic faith that precludes this that I am aware of, but people seem to associate it with liberal politics more than science. Many faithful Catholics tend to adopt negative views towards anything the liberal politicians tend to support, but I think on this particular issue they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. Sure, radical environmentalists use human-caused global climate change as an excuse to push for more population control and eugenics; liberal politicians use it to push for more government control and less personal freedom.

Just because our opponents use something to further their own means does not mean it is not true. Sure, I believe both radical environmentalists and liberal politicians are using the whole climate change issue in ways that distort the truth. However, as a scientist, I have read the peer-reviewed publications as well as the popular ones. I have studied and discussed the issue in detail in ecology classes and chemistry classes. There is a lot of evidence pointing towards anthropogenic climate change, too much for me to ignore.

Rather than deny the issue entirely, I think what is more important for us as Catholics is to form a genuinely catholic (small c) response to climate change - one that addresses the issue without ignoring certain unpopular populations (the unborn, for example) as well as respecting the rights of the individual, common good and subsidiarity. If we don't speak up for these points in the debate on what to do about climate change, who will? Whether we agree that humans are causing climate change or not, governments are acting on the issue.[/quote]


I have no doubt that the climate of the earth is changing. However, I take issue with the idea that we humans are the main cause. We effect the local and sometimes regional climate, however we have been doing it all along, only the scale has changed. The variablity of output in the sun's energy, sunspots or lack thereof, volcanoes, ocean temps and currents, orbital changes etc ALL effect our climate far more than we do.
For 20 years all the scientists talked about was global cooling and they tottled out figures to prove their argument. This seems no different. The only thing constant is change, we simply haven't been cognizant of it.

[Hassan]

[quote name='morostheos' post='1932725' date='Jul 26 2009, 07:52 PM']However, as a scientist, I have read the peer-reviewed publications as well as the popular ones. I have studied and discussed the issue in detail in ecology classes and chemistry classes. There is a lot of evidence pointing towards anthropogenic climate change, too much for me to ignore.

Rather than deny the issue entirely, I think what is more important for us as Catholics is to form a genuinely catholic (small c) response to climate change - one that addresses the issue without ignoring certain unpopular populations (the unborn, for example) as well as respecting the rights of the individual, common good and subsidiarity. If we don't speak up for these points in the debate on what to do about climate change, who will? Whether we agree that humans are causing climate change or not, governments are acting on the issue.[/quote]

I think this is sensible.

Outside of guests on Hannity's America and Glen Beck and there audience the verdict seems to pretty much be in. When Catholics laugh at the giant "hoax" of man caused global warming they look like anti-rational conspiracy nuts. I'm talking here about those claiming it is a hoax, not those who just disagree on the causal proportions. Do those people have any idea how vast and complex a conspiracy to promote this "hoax" would have to be? By comparison it makes "9/11 truthers" look like intelligent, level headed analysts. I think an intelligent religious analysis of the situation and recommendations for improving it would be valuable. That's not going to be presented, at least in the United States, the Holy Father seems to be more with the times on this issue than some here, if large contingents of the Church simply through in their lot with other anti science religious zealots.

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1932785' date='Jul 26 2009, 10:22 PM']I have no doubt that the climate of the earth is changing. However, I take issue with the idea that we humans are the main cause. We effect the local and sometimes regional climate, however we have been doing it all along, only the scale has changed. The variablity of output in the sun's energy, sunspots or lack thereof, volcanoes, ocean temps and currents, orbital changes etc ALL effect our climate far more than we do.[/quote]

Yes, the scale has changed. The scale has changed quite a bit over the last few hundred years.

When the global climate was what? Ten degrees cooler? Boston was under about a mile of ice as I recall. Humans don't have to be the only or even the largest factor in the overall global climate to have a massive impact. A few degrees either way have a massive impact on the global climate.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1932527' date='Jul 26 2009, 03:54 PM']

Contrary to popular belief, there is more than one school of thought on global climate change -- even (and perhaps especially) in the scientific community. I just don't happen to adhere to the most well-publicized and well-subsidized one.[/quote]


There can be different interpretations of data. Claiming global warming is a myth, a human fabrication, is just beyond absurd.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

Well, for one... we don't know what percentage of CO2 in the air is man-made. It's not like you can go and sort out the molecules based on how they were made. And, we don't even know if it really is the CO2 that is causing it all. There is so much involved with weather & climate systems, that it is way too early for anyone to really be making any accurate conclusions or even point any fingers.

I took the class from hell on this stuff. I survived and came out knowing more, but not able to form any real conclusions about this other than 'we don't know yet.'

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1932785' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:22 PM']I have no doubt that the climate of the earth is changing. However, I take issue with the idea that we humans are the main cause. We effect the local and sometimes regional climate, however we have been doing it all along, only the scale has changed. The variablity of output in the sun's energy, sunspots or lack thereof, volcanoes, ocean temps and currents, orbital changes etc ALL effect our climate far more than we do.
For 20 years all the scientists talked about was global cooling and they tottled out figures to prove their argument. This seems no different. The only thing constant is change, we simply haven't been cognizant of it.[/quote]
The problem I have with your opinion is that it's rather uninformed. You can rattle off all those buzz words about the sun and sunspots, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. Men and women dedicate years upon years to study these kinds of things, and you think that reading popular science articles gives you the authority to dismiss an entire body of research.

Give me a break.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1932501' date='Jul 26 2009, 03:25 PM']I've that mild summer = mild winter as well. I wonder if this will be the case... [/quote]

Last winter was very mild here in Michigan. But because the lakes never did warm up at all this summer, I am thinking that this winter we stand a very good chance of getting buried.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1932923' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:40 AM']The problem I have with your opinion is that it's rather uninformed. You can rattle off all those buzz words about the sun and sunspots, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. Men and women dedicate years upon years to study these kinds of things, and you think that reading popular science articles gives you the authority to dismiss an entire body of research.

Give me a break.[/quote]
So, because we're not scientists, we aren't allowed to criticize scientific findings? That's ridiculous.

People act as though scientists are purely altruistic in their pursuits. We accept interpreted data from studies as if a) there wasn't someone paying for the studies, b) the scientists involved didn't have a continued interest in staying employed, and c) scientists themselves didn't have an agenda.

The data is not the whole story. There is plenty of room for non-scientists to critique and have informed opinions about the interpretation, funding sources, and ulterior motives of scientists who hold that global warming is happening.

[StColette]

It definitely hasn't been low temps in Louisiana. I've seen enough 102+ in June & July to last me for a few years.

[peach_cube]

I am fortunate enough to here a Penn State with one of the Premiere Meteorological Schools in the country. I have had time to discuss this topic with several renown professors here, [url="http://www.geosc.psu.edu/people/faculty/personalpages/ralley/"]Dr. Richard Alley[/url], [url="http://www.met.psu.edu/people/j2n"]Dr. Jon Nese[/url], and [url="http://www.met.psu.edu/people/pgk2"]Dr. Paul Knight[/url]. Dr. Alley is an expert in Glaciology and Paleoclimate studies. He is a strong believer that man made CO2 is the main culprit for climate change. Dr. Nese is an expert in PA Climatology, weather extremes, and predictability and chaos theory. He was of the mind that man made CO2 may contribute to climate change but did not believe it to be the primary cause. Dr Knight who is an expert in climatology, does not believe that man made CO2 is significant enough to cause worldwide climate change.

I asked all three of them if they felt there was a consensus among experts on global warming and all of them did not believe that there was.

I know this has become a hot button issue here, I would just like to point out that you can find experts, well respected and well known experts, who support any side of the argument. What this tells us scientifically is that more research has to be done.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1933002' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:56 AM']Last winter was very mild here in Michigan. But because the lakes never did warm up at all this summer, I am thinking that this winter we stand a very good chance of getting buried.[/quote]

Yes, there was another AccuWeather.com article suggesting that the south and northeast are in for a severe winter. There have been three summers in the past century when temps rarely peaked above 85 degrees and all three were followed by unusually cold and snowy winters.

As for the climate change/global warming debate, unusually cool summers can occur during a general warming trend. They may even be more likely to occur during overall warming. Meteorology and economics are the two least-understood of all sciences because we can only study them in real time and there are thousands of factors involved in both short-term and long-term trends that are shifting at the same time.

I'm amazed at how delicate our climate is... one-tenth of one percent change in the sun's solar output causes a single degree change in the Pacific Ocean, which makes the difference between a winter with a few inches of snow or getting buried under a foot of ice and snow several times over, week-long power outages in the city (a month or longer in the country), etc.

Edited July 27, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Sojourner]

[quote name='peach_cube' post='1933023' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:49 AM']I know this has become a hot button issue here, I would just like to point out that you can find experts, well respected and well known experts, who support any side of the argument. What this tells us scientifically is that more research has to be done.[/quote]
I completely agree with this.

When I refer to the "myth" of global warming, I mean the popular understanding of it -- that it is a scientific fact, provable beyond the shadow of a doubt. This is the myth that is motivating us to spend billions of dollars we don't have to make changes that we don't know will work.

Right now, global warming as a movement is far more political and economic than it is scientific.

[StColette]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1933035' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:07 AM']Yes, there was another AccuWeather.com article suggesting that the south and northeast are in for a severe winter. There have been three summers in the past century when temps rarely peaked above 85 degrees and all three were followed by unusually cold and snowy winters.[/quote]

Usually for Louisiana when we have a hotter than average Summer, which we definitely have, then we usually have a very bad winter. Bad winter = one heck of an ice storm.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1933035' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:07 AM']Yes, there was another AccuWeather.com article suggesting that the south and northeast are in for a severe winter. There have been three summers in the past century when temps rarely peaked above 85 degrees and all three were followed by unusually cold and snowy winters.[/quote]

Heh. I'll be ready to start winterizing my home good and early then.

The lakes are all so cold, nearlt freezing cold. I've been thining that one good storm needs to come across those lakes late October and we'll be off to a snowy and cold start to a long long winter.

Maybe I need to pick up an extra roll of plastic for the windows.